Normans in Newcastle

[Angelaj]

Hi,
I've got three brothers on the 1881 census, William b.1833 (wife Alice) living at 23 Park St. Gateshead and George b.1831 (widow) and Edward b.1825 living at 14 Nuns Lane. I'm after the fourth brother Joseph b. abt. 1821. He married Margaret and I know of a daughter Mary b.1848.
Can someone please trace the brothers back through the earlier census reports? They were all born in Gateshead. I have various suggestions for the birth dates of their parents, Mary and William. Some sources have 1811 and 1807 respectively which doesn't match the ages of the children. Other dates are 1797 for Mary and 1793 for William. I believe Mary may have had a second marriage to a Mr Archer. I'd like to find their DOBs and then it should make finding their records of marriage and death a bit easier (hopefully).
A lot of information, I hope someone can help.
Angela

[birdlip]

Hi Angela,

couldn't find any of them in 1871, but this looks like William and George in 1861;

RG9; 3801; 86; P34;
Taylors Court, Gateshead, Durham

Willm Norman Head mar 28 Pudler (Iron) b Northumberland Newcastle
Ellis Norman wife mar 24 b Durham Bishop Wearmouth
Mary Jane Norman dau 16 mos b do do
Mary Wilson relation scholar 9 b do do

RG9; 3801; 83; P28
Borough Yd, Gateshead, Durham

Geo Norman Head mar 31 Pudler b Northumberland Newcastle
Eliza Norman wife mar 28 b Durham Gateshead
Mary Ann Norman dau 7 scholar b do do

regards birdlip

[birdlip]

This looks like William, George and Edward in 1851, with their mother and stepfather. Ancestry has the surname as Ascher, but its clearly Archer on the original. The writing on the original is very poor in places though.

HO107; 2402; 726; P23
Gateshead, Durham

John Archer Head mar 58 Labourer b Durham Gateshead
Mary Archer wife mar 56 b Cumberland ..(illegible)
John Archer son 14 b Newcastle on Tyne
Alexander? (Ancestry has Glendon) Archer son 8 b do
Edward Norman (Ancestry has Harman) son unm 28 Mariner b Cumberland...(illegible)
George Norman son unm 22 Labourer b Newcastle on Tyne
William Norman son unm 18 Potter b do do do

Its really unclear in places, maybe someone else reading this can look up the ref, and see if they can make out the Cumberland birthplace for us?

regards birdlip

[Angelaj]

Hi Birdlip,
Many thanks for all your hard work, it's much appreciated. From what you've discovered I suspect the family may be listed under a slightly different variation of their name for 1871.

[Pat English]

This looks like William, George and Edward in 1851, with their mother and stepfather. Ancestry has the surname as Ascher, but its clearly Archer on the original. The writing on the original is very poor in places though.

HO107; 2402; 726; P23
Gateshead, Durham

John Archer Head mar 58 Labourer b Durham Gateshead
Mary Archer wife mar 56 b Cumberland ..(illegible)
John Archer son b Newcastle on Tyne
Alexander? (Ancestry has Glendon) Archer son 8 b do
Edward Norman (Ancestry has Harman) son unm 28 Mariner b Cumberland...(illegible)
George Norman son unm 22 Labourer b Newcastle on Tyne
William Norman son unm 18 Potter b do do do

Its really unclear in places, maybe someone else reading this can look up the ref, and see if they can make out the Cumberland birthplace for us?

regards birdlip

I'd say the first placename, for Mary, begins with a D and looks a bit like Darsen. So maybe it's DALSTON or DENTON?

The second, for Edward Norman, looks like WHICHAM.

See Genuki for parishes in Cumberland.

Pat

[birdlip]

Well done Pat! We may need your help again, read on...

Angela, the good news is, I think I've found William and Alice in 1871. Norman is mistranscribed as NORTUAN. The bad news is, the writing is just as terrible!

RG10; 5058; 76; P21
21 Park Lane, Gateshead, Durham (with two other families in the same house)

William Norman head mar 39 Iron Puddler b Newcastle on Tyne
Alice Clark Norman wife mar 33 b Durham .... Sunderland?
Mary Jane Norman dau 11 scholar b Durham Gateshead
William Norman son 8 scholar b Durham Gateshead
Edward Norman son 4 b Northumberland (looks like Lemington)?
Elizabeth Ann Norman dau 8 mos b Durham Gateshead

On the same page, one of the other two families at the same address...

John Archer head mar 34 Rope maker b Durham Gateshead
Elizabeth Archer wife mar 34 b Northumberland...Berwick?
Isabella Archer dau 14 scholar b Durham Gateshead
John Archer son 12 scholar b do do
William Archer son 5 scholar b do do
Edward Archer son 3 b do do
James? Archer son 4 mos b do do

regards birdlip

[birdlip]

Hi again Angela.

I've found George in 1871.

RG10; 5058; 69; P7
18 Nuns Lane, Gateshead, Durham

George Norman head mar 40 No Occupation (formerly Puddler of Iron) b Northumberland Newcastle, Invalid
Elizabeth Norman wife mar 38 Laundress b Durham Gateshead

Interesting that George is described as an invalid. I wonder if he had some sort of industrial accident?

regards birdlip

[birdlip]

Hello again, I looked this up...

"Iron Puddler: made wrought iron using the puddling process; a highly skilled and dangerous occupation which required physical strength, stamina and sustained concentration." No OH&S or Workers Comp in those days!

Mary had already remarried by 1841, I discovered. Here she is with William and the elusive Joseph, amongst others;

HO107; 848; 10; 8; F17; P27
Bankside, Newcastle St Nicholas, Northumberland

John Archer 45 Labourer N (Not b in county)
Mary Archer 40 N
Joseph Norman 20 Clogger N
William Norman 8 Y (yes, b in county)
John Archer 4 Y
Isabella Bruce 45 Charwoman S (b in Scotland)

I'd assumed that John Archer was a stepson of Marys and therefore a step brother of Williams, but I can't find a marriage for John and Mary between Sep 1837 and 1841. It occurred to me that John, b abt 1836 is possibly a half brother of Williams, not a step brother, so the marriage is likely to have been between Williams birth (abt 1833) and Johns.
Probably in Newcastle, I wonder if SKS would look that up for you?

continued...

[birdlip]

I'm on a roll, but I must go to bed soon, its into the wee small hours over here!

I don't know how I missed this before. If I'd just scrolled down a bit, I'd have found Joseph on the same page, right next door to the others in 1851. Actually, I realise I didn't give you the address before either, its 'Listers Buildings'

Joseph Norman head wdr 30 Clogger b Cumberland, Easdale? (I haven't got Pats list in front of me to check it)
Mary Norman dau 2 b Newcastle on Tyne
William Winton? stepson 13 Painter b do do

and on freebmd marriages; Newcastle on T, Joseph Norman m Margaret Wintrip, Sep Qu 1841, 25 314

and deaths; Newcastle on T, Norman Margaret, Jun Qu 1850, 25 252

Thats it for now.. regards, birdlip

[Angelaj]

I do like helpful insomniacs.
Thanks for all the look ups. Family consensus is that Mary Archer was born in Dalston, and Joseph Norman in Easdale. I think there may be more recognisable scrawls on some documents the family has.
I'm rather intrigued by the appearance of Isabella Bruce with the Normans. Would a family of labourers and cloggers have a charwoman or is she some relation?
Angela

[suedent]

I'm rather intrigued by the appearance of Isabella Bruce with the Normans. Would a family of labourers and cloggers have a charwoman or is she some relation?
Angela

It's possible that Isabella is just a boarder

[birdlip]

Hi Angela,

a good nights sleep works wonders! I'm glad it all ties in with what you've got. I tend to agree Isabella may well have been a boarder; but perhaps a relative, so it would be good to keep the surname in mind I guess. Good luck,

regards birdlip