Alfred Tracey of Plumstead formerly Stanway Essex

[laroc]

Hi all
Is anybody researching the above family in Plumstead or Woolwich? You see I have a problem, I have recently received the marriage certificate for Alfred Tracey and Emma Eliza Knight and I am 98% sure it is the right couple: apart from one little niggle that will not go away. His fathers name was William Tracey, it is William Tracey on the certificate so far so good, but his father was an Ag lab all his life and by the time of the marriage ( 1881) was dead, however on the certificate it gives his fathers occupation as a WAITER!
My thoughts are these;
a) Have I got the wrong certificate and should I look again?
b) Did the vicar simply mishear? Unlikely as both parties have signed their names and should have spotted the mistake.
c) Was he simply trying to make himself look better than he was?
Any thoughts anyone?
Carol

[Pam Downes]

Hi Carol,

I think that you're OK with that marriage if you're referring to the Alfred Tracey who's living in Plumstead aged 25 in the 1881. If the age on the marriage certificate ties in, then I think that there is little doubt.
Depending on the 'status' of Emma's family, then Alfred may have been trying to get himself a notch up the ladder by saying that his father was a waiter.
Just because A & E signed the register doesn't mean they could read what had been written by the vicar. And how many of us today just blindly do as instructed when we're told 'sign here', instead of reading what we're signing?

I can let you have the 1871 and 1891 refs for Alfred if you haven't got them.

On the subject of the vicar mishearing my friend's father has his father's occupation listed as 'doctor' when in fact he was a docker!

Pam Downes

[Phil]

Hi

I don't if this is any help. I have come across William Tracey on BMD:-

Name Tracey, William
Record Type Deaths
Age at Death 64
Quarter March
Year 1877
District Lexden
County Essex
Volume 4a
Page 223

Regards

Phil

[laroc]

Hi Carol,

I think that you're OK with that marriage if you're referring to the Alfred Tracey who's living in Plumstead aged 25 in the 1881. If the age on the marriage certificate ties in, then I think that there is little doubt.
Depending on the 'status' of Emma's family, then Alfred may have been trying to get himself a notch up the ladder by saying that his father was a waiter.
Just because A & E signed the register doesn't mean they could read what had been written by the vicar. And how many of us today just blindly do as instructed when we're told 'sign here', instead of reading what we're signing?

I can let you have the 1871 and 1891 refs for Alfred if you haven't got them.

On the subject of the vicar mishearing my friend's father has his father's occupation listed as 'doctor' when in fact he was a docker!

Pam Downes
Hi Pam
I have taken a look and I do have the census details for him from 1861 aged 5 to 1901 when he was aged 45 and his age and place of birth are consistant in them all. I am wondering if his broad Essex accent made Labourer sound like waiter? maybe I am clutching at straws here ?
Carol

[laroc]

Hi

I don't if this is any help. I have come across William Tracey on BMD:-

Name Tracey, William
Record Type Deaths
Age at Death 64
Quarter March
Year 1877
District Lexden
County Essex
Volume 4a
Page 223

Regards

Phil
Hi Phil
Thankyou for this but I do already have it and he is down as a labourer on it, so quite where the waiter came from I do not know.
Carol

[Phil]

Hi Phil
Thankyou for this but I do already have it and he is down as a labourer on it, so quite where the waiter came from I do not know.
Carol

That is a puzzle but as has been said it could well be a misunderstand by the registrar. Chinese whispers!

Phil

[andrew.tracey]

Hi all

I am not a genealogist but have a vague interest in my family history. I stumbled on this thread by acident through a search engine.

Alfred Tracey is my grandfather. I have a photograph of him and his wife and family taken in Plumstead in 1894-ish, and one of him taken 1912-ish shortly before his death. I am the son of Royston George Tracey, who was one of the sons of Henry William Tracey, Alfred's only son. I have outline details of Alfred's father William Tracey, and William's father Amos Tracey. There it stops. This was my late uncle Donald's research, not mine.

I am simply curious to know why Alfred is of interest to you all.

I am also intrigued by the reference to Alfred marrying Emma in 1881 - I knew the name but I did not know the date. Alfred's circa 1894 family photograph shows, amongst others, an eldest child, a daughter Constance, born in 1878, and she certainly looks a few years older than Henry William, born toward the end of 1881. Does anyone know where she came from, three years before the marriage? Interestingly, Alfred's father William married Eliza Carter when she already had a daughter aged about 2.

Andrew Tracey

[laroc]

I am simply curious to know why Alfred is of interest to you all.
|woohoo| :) Hello Andrew it is really exciting to hear from you, Alfred Tracey son of William Tracey an agricultural labourer of Stanway in Essex would be my Great Great Uncle! He was born in Stanway circa 1855 and baptised in St Albrights on October 14th 1855.
He was the brother of William born January 27th 1843 who married Eliza Fisher in 1864 and who was my Grandfather.
Also of Charles born 1841
John Arthur born 1845
Mary Eliza born 1847
Henry Amos born 1850
Frederick born 1851
Roobert born 1853

I have a copy of his marriage certificate and have what I think is him in several census years, my problem was the occupation of his father on his marriage certificate. It is listed as Waiter and I know he was an ag lab all his life, I am planning to write to the Woolwich register office to see if they can check the original and see what that says.
I have no knowledge of Constance or Henry William the only children I have for this couple come from the 1901 census and are as follows;
Mable 1884 Ethel 1887 Nina 1891 Doris 1897 Eva K 1894 all born Plumstead Kent. Do these match what you know?
I have an awful lot on this family which when my son sorts out my computer I am willing to share.
Looking forward to hearing from you
Carol

[laroc]

Hello Andrew
I have just looked through my census pages for 1891 and think I have Constance and Henry on them although it is not a clear copy as someone sent it to me.
carol

[andrew.tracey]

Hi Carol

Good to virtually meet you. You have already told me things I didn't know. I would be very pleased to hear more in due course, as I suspect you know much more than I do.

The only child (other than Alfred) of William Tracey that I knew of was Charles, whom I simply knew to have been born around 1841, making Alfred very much a younger son. I also knew of Elizabeth Carter, as a daughter apparently born to William's wife Eliza Carter in about 1838, before they married.

Alfred's family consisted of Constance Ada (1878-1955 and apparently born before the marriage so possibly not Alfred's child); Henry William (1881-1956); Mabel (1884-1931); Ethel (1888-1974); Nina (1891-1961); Eva Kate (1893-1983). These are all in my family photograph taken outside a house said to be in Raglan Road, Plumstead. Later children were Doris (1897-? [Still alive in 1983]); and Winifred Alice (1904-1971). I don't know what Alfred did for a living, but the whole famly look much too well-dressed for him to have been a labourer or probably even a waiter and they are posed outside the house in a very proprietorial way.

My cousin Christine, daughter of my uncle Donald, who has a lot of the research he did. When she retires in a year or two she says she is going to sort it all out. She is more au fait with things than I am, but as she is a teacher has absolutely no time to do anything. Donald (Alfred's Grandson) was still living in Plumstead until the early 1960s, although not in the Raglan Road house.

Christine has this theory that Stanway in Essex, where many of our predecessors seem to have hung out, is in some way linked with or named after Stanway Manor in Gloucestershire, where a rather superior branch of the Tracy family lurked for countless generations. Having read up on them a bit and seen their buildings, I'm a bit miffed that our lot ended up as agricultural labourers and may have viewed being a waiter as social climbing.

My e-mail address is [email protected]

Thanks for you prompt reply. Best wishes.

Andrew

[andrew.tracey]

Carol

I have just looked up the dates for Alfred. Born 1st September 1855, married 1881 (I don't have the date) and died 22nd February 1915. So although he was 69, he died before my father was born, so my dad never knew his grandfather. There are surprisingly large spans between the generations in this family. [By contrast, I know a family that currently has six generations in the maternal line all alive now, from great-great-great-grandma in her late 90s (born about 1908) to a newborn baby boy.] Six generations of the Tracey family takes our line back from me to Amos Tracey born in about 1778, well over a hundred years further. The dates for Alfred are not checked in any way. They come from what I think is poshly called "family tradition" i.e. scraps of paper in old shoe boxes with dates scribbled on.

Henry William, by the way, fathered nine children, waited till they were all adult and then separated from his wife! So I never met my grandfather, either, although he was still alive when I was a young child.

In the photograph, which is not very clear, Constance certainly looks as much like both Alfred and Emma as do the other kids. Henry named one of his daughters Constance, so my guess is that Alfred's Constance was very much part of the family despite the query raised by her age and the date of the marriage. In both the photographs I have of Alfred he looks considerably older than the dates reveal him to be: at 39-ish he looks 50, and at 67-ish he looks 80+.

Andrew