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Oates
21-08-2007, 1:32 AM
http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/9043/img364pd1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I found this picture in a laundry basket full of photos which belonged to my grandparents. As no-one living knows who it is, I looked through the tree to find possible candidates.

James ALLEN (1839-1897), a glass bottle blower, had six sons (and two daughters). I have a feeling they may be the people in the photograph. His youngest son was born 1882 and I have a feeling the photo may have been taken around 1890-1892. That's just a guess assuming I have the right family. In 1890, James would have been 51 and his sons would have been 23, 21, 18, 14, 11 and 8. If the youngest 4 are in the photo, this seems about right for their ages. The woman in the background may be their mother. Also, the second youngest bears somewhat of a resemblance to this man, his son (if I'm right). http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/3425/edwinrf6.jpg

The photo has a postcard design on the back which would put the photo in the early 20th century. However, 'sometimes a postcard will show people who clearly belong in the 19th century. This happens when someone in the early 20th century wanted a cheap copy of an old photograph.'

I've looked through a few photo dating websites but they nearly all show mainly women and upper class people. I haven't seen any photos remotely resembling this one. So, can someone with more experience tell me if this looks like a photo from the 1890s? Also any ideas as to what on earth they might be doing with those birds?

Oh, by the way, James is from Manchester but the children are all born in Thornhill, West Yorkshire.

LynA
21-08-2007, 7:53 AM
Could they be showing their hobbies? The dog looks as if it could be used for coursing. Was pigeon racing around then? I'm a bit confused by the chickens as I thought it was probably a bit late for cock fighting.

This is just a possibility. I hope others will have ideas on this.
Lynda

Ladkyis
21-08-2007, 8:52 AM
It could be that there had been some sort of competition and these birds had won prizes. Or they had won the birds as prizes in a raffle.

Pigeon pie was/is very tasty especially when it doesn't have lead-shot through it. and even bantams can make a tasty chicken stew.

Oates
21-08-2007, 7:20 PM
Thanks for the ideas :). Did people actually raffle birds?! If so, that sounds likely or the competition. Or maybe they shot them. Sadly the idea that it was a competition casts some doubt on my theory that they were a family - 4 brothers and their father. Any guesses at a date? Does 1890 sound about right?


Hi Oates,

Could you please resize your pictures before posting as this is somewhat overpowering.

Sorry about that. On my browser they just show up as links. Does it show the images on your screen in the thread? Or is it the images that are taking too long to load when you click the links? Is it possible to resize them on imageshack without deleting and reuploading them? I don't have a photo editing program at the moment (computer problems caused them to vanish) so can I resize them online? :confused:

Lenore
03-04-2008, 9:47 AM
Even if the photo was taken in the 1890s, the father does not look 51. People aged more quickly in days with lower standards of hygiene and nutrition. I think you should go with the date indicated by the fact that the photo is a postcard - ie, post 1906.

Not all photos in families are family photos - it might have come from a family friend, perhaps. Not all of the boys in the pic are necessarily brothers - the one on the right looks a bit like a ring-in. He isn't as well-presented as the other three boys. The three younger ones are clean and wearing good clothes, as if just back from church, and the one on the right is a bit grubby looking, wearing old clothes.

Best wishes,

Lenore

ChristineR
03-04-2008, 11:34 AM
Or maybe they shot them.

They are all alive and kicking - you can see how securely they are holding them. They appear to be outside a yard - possibly the chook pen, see the high fence. And mum or sister hiding back there by the gate! [edit: one clips the ends of the wing feathers to keep them from flying over.]

Perhaps they have just purchased a breeding pair of each, and these are the beginnings of the future flocks. The pigeons may be going into a pigeon house - there is a travelling box by the feet of the boy at the right.

That is certainly a rooster and a hen. The smaller birds look like they have crested or fluffy heads?

I love the old work tools.

ChristineR

Peter_uk_can
03-04-2008, 2:52 PM
Although illegal since 1835, could they be fighting cocks ?

I can't see all the detail of the birds and it has been suggested that one is a hen. The area seems to be designed with poultry in mind, looks like the top of a hen house to the right. Obviously the dog has seen and eaten more chickens than he can remember and couldn't care less, his collar may suggest that he stayed out and guarded the chicken run, but was prevented from getting into the coup.

The lady on the right, dressed for a day processing chickenmeat and I don't think there would be a fence like that and those tools for the odd 4 or 5 chickens.

The two boys on the left don't seem too happy in holding onto theirs.

I would guess 1930'ish and the three on the right are father with his sons.

The two on the left, possibly their father is the one holding the camera and are from a different part of town so to speak.

Lenore
04-04-2008, 10:34 AM
I don't think the photo is as late as the 1930s, for three reasons. Firstly, no woman under 70 would be wearing a dress and apron of that length in the 1930s. It is probably no later than the end of WW1. Secondly, the shape of the neck of the waistcoat is very much the in thing at the turn of the century, early 1900s, in other words. And thirdly, after 1900 young men were usually clean shaven. Men with moustaches, as a general rule, were those who were young men in the 1880s and 1890s.

The fowlyard reminds me of my grandfather's - built from timber gleaned from all over, yard picked clean of anything green or wriggling by the chooks. There is a small handtruck for moving bags of feed, and a rake and shovel for cleaning up the hen house.

The occasion was probably made special by someone with a camera turning up to take their photo. The boys are all scrubbed and brushed as if they have been to church, so it is probably just a Sunday visitor with a fancy high-tech Box Brownie.

The chooks might have been in hand for no more complicated reason than handing them over to someone to establish their own chook-yard. Endless reasons for having chooks to hand. About to send them off to a show? Brought back from a show? Selling them at a market? My grandmother (on the other side) ran a small poultry business, and in the absence of any other playthings, my cousins and I mainly played with the chooks. Taught them spelling and everything.

Best wishes,

Lenore

ProspectHill
04-04-2008, 11:02 AM
What a great picture, and such scrutiny has been taken by forum-members to figure it out! I think it is a man proudly showing off his four sons who are proudly showing off their best fowl. And the Mom looking on tolerantly at the celebration of masculinity.

But that's what this is all about, right? Genealogy is about parents and children, passing on their genes and looks and interests and history. My Dad tells me about when he kept chickens, and my Mom's Dad kept chickens and homing pigeons, and now two of their living offspring keep chickens also, although we don't really need to in this day and age.

I notice the Dad's sleeves are rolled up and the boys are all a bit more formal. And all the clothes are whole and clean.

Thanks for showing it!

Nicos
04-04-2008, 11:41 AM
Indeed- a lovely photo!

The pair on the left have clean shiny shoes, and the 2 other lads, and the man look more dusty.
I think they are all chooks ( remember that hens were a lot smaller until the early 1900's when they were bred for their size).
No pigeons from the look of the feathers.
I'd say they were all alive too and that the 2 boys on the left are holding them in a way indicating they are unused to handling them. " Hold it like this and don't let go" - the other 2 look at ease with theirs( holding them sideways!)

?? turn of the century??? ( just a guess);)

Alan Welsford
04-04-2008, 11:54 AM
It's a wonderful picture, but isn't it frustrating when you don't know who they are.

As you say, dating it is made much harder by the fact it is unlike just about any sample picture you might find on a dating web-site.

I'm no expert, but my personal view is that it is unlikely to be who you think it is.

Te fact that it is a non-studio picture, presumably not executed by a professional, I think means it is likely to have been taken rather later than the 1897 death date of the man you mention.

I believe that "Brownie" roll film cameras date from around 1900, although how affordable photography was to the working classes then, I'm not sure.

My guess, (nothing better!), is that it was taken in the 1900 to 1910 period, although I'd be very happy to have that corrected by someone with better knowledge of either the technology or the fashions involved.

Alan.

Peter_uk_can
04-04-2008, 2:23 PM
It would be interesting to know the precise dimensions of the photo. My software puts the image at about 5.3 x 3.3 inches, which scales to about 4 x 2.5 inches

The original box brownie, introduced in 1900, produced photos at 2.25 inches square, so the norm would be for any enlargments to be at a similar scale.

In 1930 the Beau Brownie used 116 film and produced photos that were 4.25 x 2.5 inches, enlargements would have again been inclined towards the same scale.

I have photos of my grandfather in the 1930's who is sporting a moustache similar to that of the older man here.

Oates
02-01-2009, 12:20 AM
Wow, I was just looking through my old posts when I came across this. I never expected it to accumulate so many replies in my absence. It's been interesting to read all the different perspectives on the picture.

It seems unlikely I'll ever find out who these people were. As I mentioned earlier, I got this photo from a laundry basket absolutely full of them from my grandparents' house after they died. My only reason for suggesting James Allen as the man in the picture was that he had a lot of sons. He and his sons (when they got a bit older) were glass bottle blowers. However, it could be anyone really - related or otherwise. There were a lot of mystery photos in the basket, many of them from the 1930s/40s of weddings and such. This one though was different to the rest and particularly intriguing. I'd like to think it was a family photo, but it could have come from anywhere.

My grandfather's ancestors were all very local, and according to my grandmother's brother, his side doesn't have any old family photos and he didn't recognise anyone when I showed him the picture. Perhaps a local history expert might have some ideas, perhaps even have some clue as to the place.

Peter_uk_can - I'm sorry, I don't know the dimensions and I gave the laundry basket, along with this photo, back to my aunt. As I said though, it had a postcard on the back if that helps.

blue eyes
02-01-2009, 10:57 AM
Hi Oates,

The man 2nd from the right looks similar to the man in your Victorian Picture thread!

Astoria
02-01-2009, 11:17 AM
They do seem to have the family ears :)

Oates
02-01-2009, 2:20 PM
Thanks for the input, but I doubt it. This picture belonged to my paternal grandparents, whereas the picture in the other thread is from my maternal grandmother's side. I was thinking of having a closer look for family resemblances though with this picture. The boys all look very different, except perhaps the one of the far left and the one in the middle? Perhaps they weren't related at all. Cousins is another possibility with the two on the left being wealthier cousins.