Name interests

[chrissiethechippy]

Hi there, still in early stages of looking into my tree. I've got this far wth help from relatives, wondering if anyone has the same names, any info or advice please :)

KIRK

George KIRK (1878 - 1941) married Alice Mary JOHNSON (1887 - 1944). George had the last name SHAW on the wedding certificate, but it was dropped on the birth certificates to come....

Georges father, which is an interesting one, is, George Laban KIRK (1846-1901 ) married a Margaret SUDDALL (1847 - ?? ) in 1873. Margaret seems to vanish without a trace. George has 7 children, but gets married again to a Louisa SHAW (1858-1908) in 1900, a year before his death. I have yet to discover who mothered the children and find out what happened to Margaret.....

I have then got back to John Labin (sometimes spelt Laban) KIRK (1811 - 1867 ) who married an Emma ?? , they seem to have 8 children and on one census, when they only had the 5 children they all had the middle name Labin??? Could it possibly be the mothers maiden name? It wasn't on the next census?


Thank you :)

[birdlip]

Hello there,

there is this death on freebmd;

Jun qu 1892
Kirk Margaret 43 Belper 7b 330

The age is about right.

Even though George married Margaret in 1873, and didnt marry Louisa until 1900, am I right in thinking that George is with Louisa in the 1881 and 1891 census?

regards, birdlip

[chrissiethechippy]

Hi Birdlip, thank you for that. It sounds like it may well be her!

Yes Louisa was on the cencus as his wife, but they were not married, I guess it may have been frowned upon back then :)

It's interesting to think of why they split up! I'm guessing they may have waited to get married and when Margaret died they could? Although there is quite a gap between Margarets death and the date they got married.


If I were to get a copy of the death certificate would it tell me her maiden name? I'm assuming the cause of death would be on there :o (can you tell I have not bought one yet ;) )

[birdlip]

Hello again.

Death certificates don't actually give you a lot of information unfortunately. You will get the date and place of death, age, cause of death, occupation, then the name, description and address of informant. None of which, in this case, may help you be certain that you have the right death.

You may be lucky and find the informant turns out to be a relative, e.g sister, brother in law. For this reason, its probably a good idea to find out as much as you can about Margaret and her family before you rush off to purchase a death certificate.

continued...

[birdlip]

I think this is her in 1851;

HO107; 2143; 380; P16
59, Leonard St, St Peters, Derby

Sarah Suddall, head, widow, 39, domestic b Derby St Peters
Mary Sudall, dau, 16, mill hand, b do
John Sudall, son, 14, errand boy, b do
Thomas Suddall, son, 12, lace hand, b do
Eliza Sudall, dau, 7, scholar, b do
Sarah A Sudall, dau, 5, scholar, b do
Margarett Sudall, dau, 3, scholar, b do
Thomas Hadhouse, lodger, 30, mill hand, b Derby, Stbrebingh (!) This is the Ancestry transcription, someone with a better knowledge of Derbyshire may be able to translate.

continued...

[birdlip]

I can't find her in 1861, but I'll keep looking. Her mother and a couple of her sisters are here;

RG9; 2501; 78; P41
59, Leonard St, as before

Sarah Sudall, head, widow, 49, wash and clean woman, b Derby St Peters
Eliza Sudall, dau, unm, 17, silk factory hand, b do
Sarah Ann Sudall, dau, 15, silk factory hand, b do

...and this seems to be her living with her brother and his family in 1871, a couple of years before her marriage;

RG10; 3567; 27; P4
!8, Bradshaw St, St Peters, Derby

John Suddale, head, mar, 34* Iron Turner at Railway b Derby, St Peters
Jane Suddale, wife, mar, 34 b do
William Suddale, son, 15, grate fitter at foundry b do
Sarah Ann Suddale, dau, 10, b do
Margaret Suddale, sister, unm, 23 Laundress, b do

* Ancestry transcription says 54, but its definitely 34 on the original.

continued...

[birdlip]

I can't find her at all in either the 1881 or 1891 census, either as Margaret Kirk or using her maiden name. So perhaps she did die...but if so, you'd imagine there'd have been nothing to stop George and Louisa marrying.

It certainly is a mystery. Perhaps Margaret was in an institution of some sort for many years, an asylum or hospital. In census returns, the inmates or patients were often just listed by their initials.

regards, birdlip

[chrissiethechippy]

Thank you for that birdlip! I really appriciate it :) I'd got a bit stuck with the tree there.

Do you think the different spelling of Suaddall (Suddale) matters? There seems to be quite a lot of changing last names in my tree, adopting middle names and taking the mothers name too.

I wondered if she maybe died during childbirth? But then, they would have been free to marry.... the asylum theory sounds interesting!

I think Margaret may be a mystery for a while yet! The family names are a fantastic start to unraveling it! Thank you :)

[birdlip]

The spellings varied a lot. The census enumerators often just guessed, and wrote down what it sounded like.

regards birdlip

[birdlip]

...found her in 1861;

RG9; 2505; 80; P12
Osmaston Rd, Litchurch, St Peter, Derby

James Jay, head, mar, 55, schoolmaster, b Cornwall St Germans
Frances A Moon, niece, unm, 36, housekeeper, b Cornwall Launceston
Margaret Suddalls, servant, 14, b Derby

another spelling for you!

regards, birdlip

[JLLipscomb]

William Suddall was my great great grandfather and his daughter Martha Suddall (who married William Burley) was my great grandmother.

I give below details known to me about the family but would welcome any additional information particularly if it takes my further back.

WILLIAM SUDDALL is believed to have been born about 1787 (?) at either Sutton-on-the-Hill, Allestree or Sutton Ashbourne (Different census returns give different birth locations for the same person).

He was a tailor and was living at 24 Sadler Gate, Derby in 1851 (HO107/2143) He married MARTHA GRAY (or GREY) at St Werbergh’s Church on 12 October 1812.
MARTHA GRA(E)Y was born at Langley, Derby. (Possibly christened at Eckington 2 October 1785 but this seems to be too early).
They were resident at 63 Leonard Street Derby in 1871. (RG10 3568: William’s age given as 80 in that census).
MARTHA SUDDALL died of Bronchitis on 9 November 1876 aged 86.
WILLIAM was still alive at that date, described as a house proprietor.


Known Children of WILLIAM and MARTHA SUDDALL are:
i) WILLIAM SUDDALL christened at Brookside Independent Chapel on 10 April 1814. He married Sarah ???? and had children Mary (chr 12 October 1834) and John (chr 29 January 1837)
ii) MARY SUDDALL (born about1819) married George E Barker (a tailor), who came from Tutbury Staffordshire, on 15th July 1845 at St Werburgh’s Derby. Mary was living in Tutbury in 1861.
iii) ANN(E) SUDDALL was christened at St Werbergh’s on 29 January 1826. She married John Smith on 20th September 1846 and was living at 63 Leonard Street at the time of Martha’s death in 1876.
iv) MARTHA SUDDALL, b 19 March 1828, christened at St Werbergh’s on 9 March 1834. She married WILLIAM BURLEY 21 September 1854. She died on 8 December 1914. She was buried at Uttoxeter Road Cemetery on 12 December 1914.
v) ELIZA SUDDALL b 1834 and christened at St Werbergh’s on 9 March 1834 married Joseph Orme on 28th June 1862.

I hope someone can provide more early background to the Suddalls?

[BeeE586]

I wonder if SUDDALL is yet anoher variation on the SIDDALL which I am researching in Derbyshire. To date this has also appeared as SIDALL SIDDAL SIDAL SYDDALL SYDDAL SYDALL SYDAL SYDLE SIDLE SIDEL SEIDEL SEDDEL SYDEL and SIDDON.

Just a thought.

Eileen