1841/51 Census help please

[busyglen]

Could someone help me with my current hair-pulling problem please?

I have a Thomas Jones, marrying an Hannah Dawes in 1856, at St. Jude's Church, Chelsea. I have the certificate which states that they were of `Full' age, and that the father of Hannah was Joseph Dawes, a Blacksmith.

I have details of the 1861 Census which shows Hannah as 29 and coming from Derbyshire. I originally thought I had found her on the 1841 Census in the parish of Crich, Reg District of Belper? aged 6, but the father was Thomas Dawes so this is not correct.

I have tried searching, but am unable to look at the records as I don't subscribe to Ancestry, so I would be really grateful if someone could look at the 1841/51 Censuses to see if they can find Hannah and her family please.

I am hoping that I can find her birth also, but I don't know her correct age, and have searched quite a few years. If I can find her birth location from a Census, that would be a great help. I realise the 1841 doesn't show these details, but the family can help in other ways.

Many thanks. :)
Glenys

[AnnB]

Hello Glenys

I've had a look for Hannah Dawes and her family in the 1841 and 1851 censuses, but have to admit defeat - again! What is it with this pesky family :confused: Perhaps someone else will have more luck.

I wondered if it might be worth your while getting in touch with the Science Museum http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/ - bit of a long shot, I know, but they have a big library and may have some information on scale and weight makers. In your position, I think I'd grab at any straws going ;)

Best wishes
Ann

[busyglen]

Thanks for your trouble Ann!

It's unbelievable isn't it? I can help friends and family with their lines and not encounter too many hiccoughs, but with the Jones crowd, I'm thwarted every time! Not only with the Jones, but the spouses as well!! |shakehead

When I found that Hannah was a Dawes, I thought `great this is a new name and shouldn't be too difficult to follow!!' Wrong!!

I'm beginning to think that they all moved abroad, but Hannah missing as well before the wedding can't be right. I have a sneaking feeling that Hannah died and Thomas married again, and after dad's death he changed his occupation. Nevertheless, I am open to all suggestions to look at the Scalemakers Occupation, so will see if anything transpires from the ulr you have given.

Thanks again for your help. :)

Glenys.

[busyglen]

I've just come across this site, and am working my way through, although no Jones. There is a mention of a [Jones 1865] but can't relate to my Edward (? Thomas) as he had died in 1864. Still, there are mentions of lots of entries from the 1881 Census and other things like apprentices etc which are not listed alphabetically. I doubt that I will find anything but interesting nevertheless!

Glenys





http://home.clara.net/brianp/namesad.html

[AnnB]

Hello Glenys

I came across that site a little while ago, but when I couldn't find any Jones's on it, I didn't bother to tell you :o

Just another thought - have you tried for a will for Edward Jones? If he did leave one, it might give you something else to go on. Having said that, knowing them, that would be too easy ;)

Best wishes
Ann

[busyglen]

Hello Glenys

I came across that site a little while ago, but when I couldn't find any Jones's on it, I didn't bother to tell you :o

Just another thought - have you tried for a will for Edward Jones? If he did leave one, it might give you something else to go on. Having said that, knowing them, that would be too easy ;)

Best wishes
Ann

Regarding the Will Ann.....I did look some time back and couldn't find anything for Edward, but Myth came across details of daughter Maria receiving a small amount of money (a couple of hundred pounds I think from memory, I have the details in the file) which she must have claimed from his Estate. I don't think there was a lot of money......mother Eliza died from imbibing to much alcohol, and died the same year as Edward. It was also the same year as Thomas's sister Elizabeth, married my Alfred Jarvis! What a year eh?

Thanks for the thought though....appreciated. :)

Glenys

[Frank W]

When I found that Hannah was a Dawes, I thought `great this is a new name and shouldn't be too difficult to follow!!' Wrong!!


Wonder if DAWES has been mistranscribed as DAVIES? (or vice-versa)

Regards......Frank W

[Ken Boyce]

Hi Glenys
This will be posted in 2 parts

I checked the London 1861 entry for wrong transcriptions The image is very clear and shows Hannah age 29 b Derbyshire

I then had a go at finding Hannah and Joseph in the 1841 and 1851. I was attempting to find.a Joseph in the same household as a Hannah possibly with a Blacksmith. The secret to successful searching is to keep the number of search fields to 2 or 3 at a time. For economic reasons I could only look at transcription indexes not the images.

Here are the stats for what their worth I leave you to decide which transcriptions or images to pursue

Searching first for “Hannah Dawes” then for “Han* Dawes” and then “Dawes” alone returns the following number of total hits for all of the UK:
1841 census 32 – 32 - 1192
1851 census 33 –39 - 2010
1861 census 31 - 32 - 2241

pt 2 to follow

[Ken Boyce]

Pt 2

Searching the Derbyshire 1841 census
for Hannah Dawes returns 5 hits
Han* Dawes 5
Dawes 137
Hannah Daw* 31
Daw* 688
The returns are for all ages

Searching the 1841/1851 all UK for Joseph returns the following hits:
Joseph Dawes 46/48
Jos* Dawes 47/55
Dawes 1692/2010

Searching the Derbyshire 1841/51 returns the following hits
Joseph Dawes 5/2
Jos* Dawes 5/2
Joe Dawes 5/2
Joseph (Blacksmith) 0/22
Dawes (Blacksmith) 0/0
Joseph Daw* 20/19
Daw* 688/626
Daw* (Blacksmith) 0/0
Joseph 10688/9623

I’m not familiar with Derbyshire but you should allow for the fact that the Derbyshire Census only covers those parts of the old Shire which fell within the boundary of the Derbyshire Civil Registration County which did not include all locations in the Shire (possibley Notts or Yorkshire). Also there may have been a reshuffling of the registration boundaries between 1841 &1851

Regards

[Davran]

Glenys,

I've looked at all Joseph Daw(es) born before 1817 in the 1841 and none of them is a blacksmith nor do they have a daughter called Hannah. Was he still alive at the marriage in 1856?

[AnnB]

Regarding the Will Ann.....I did look some time back and couldn't find anything for Edward, but Myth came across details of daughter Maria receiving a small amount of money (a couple of hundred pounds I think from memory, I have the details in the file) which she must have claimed from his Estate.

After I had shut the computer off for the night, I remembered the tale of Maria and the money :o Never mind, a 'proper' will would have been too easy for Edward ;)

Best wishes
Ann

[busyglen]

Thanks so much for all of this searching Ken.....the results that you turned up are interesting. Regarding the boundaries, I did come across an Hannah born in Notts on the IGI....always a possibility...I must look it up again, as I didn't make a note thinking that it was the wrong County. It might also give her father, which I didn't have at that time.

Hope you were able to see straight after all this searching!!

Again my thanks for your trouble....will let you know if I turn something up. :)

Glenys

[busyglen]

Wonder if DAWES has been mistranscribed as DAVIES? (or vice-versa)

Regards......Frank W


Hi Frank,

Dawes is the correct name from the marriage certificate, but of course it could have been transcribed as anything on the Censuses...Davies is a good bet, but I think Davies is almost as hard to search as Jones!!

Thanks for the pointer. :)

Glenys

[busyglen]

Glenys,

I've looked at all Joseph Daw(es) born before 1817 in the 1841 and none of them is a blacksmith nor do they have a daughter called Hannah. Was he still alive at the marriage in 1856?


Thanks for your help Davran.

I'm not sure if Joseph was alive at the time of Hannah's marriage to Thomas, as it didn't mention `Deceased'. They didn't always put this on all certificates did they? I know it was often on certificates if the parties were under age, but in this case their ages are shown as `Full' ie. over 21.

It's possible of course that Hannah was called something else on the Censuses but used her `proper name' for the marriage, which is another reason why I can't find her on the 1841/51.

It's also possible that Joseph changed his occupation (although in this sort of trade, they usually stuck with it) or it's been mis-transcribed again.

I guess I'm `up the creek without a paddle' yet again!!

Thanks again for your help. :)

Glenys

[busyglen]

After I had shut the computer off for the night, I remembered the tale of Maria and the money :o Never mind, a 'proper' will would have been too easy for Edward ;)

Best wishes
Ann

Well, we know why he didn't have much money don't we? Eliza spent it on drink!! ;)

Glenys

[Mythology]

Just while I think of it, Glenys, as you mentioning the Administration Grant has reminded me...
I have a feeling that due to a forum crash followed by memory failure on my part, I forgot to get back to you to confirm that I'd checked the death duty register just in case, but, as we expected with a low amount going to a descendant, no entry there - if there was any tax theoretically due from Maria (I can never remember the ever-changing rules), like most of them then where the amount was insignificant, they didn't bother to make her disturb the moths.

[Neil Wilson]

Glenys

Dawes is a popular name in Derbyshire, there is some on my Clay Cross site but not yours. If I remember correctly, they did come from Belper and where miners before going into shopkeeping. Have another look at Belper district but with a wider search area, as far as Heanor and maybe Basford district (Which is in Notts).
Good hunting
Neil

[busyglen]

Hi Neil,

Thanks for your input. :)

The first family I found on the 1841 was from Crich, (Belper area) and I felt sure this was Hannah's family.....until I got the marriage cert. and father was shown as Joseph, and not Thomas as per the Census info.

I have since come across a site http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~dlhdby/parish.htm which has Parish records for Crich. It is quite interesting, and I wonder if one of these families is Joseph's ? The fact that so many of them have biblical names, makes me think that they could be linked in some way....also daughter Hannah. But.....this is all supposition, and I have been looking towards Notts. which Ken mentioned as possibles due to the boundaries changing. At this moment I haven't found out what parts of Derbyshire were in Notts. at some time, but it's worth looking at the areas you mentioned.

Thanks again.

Glenys

[Ann Dee]

There's a Hannah Dawes on the 1851 census in Chatham Place, Camberwell, Peckham. On ancestry's record it says she is 10 years old but on the actual image she is shown as 18 years old. She is living with the family of John Norman, a leather seller, and is a servant. It says she is born in Middlesex, but this could be a mistake. It depends who answered the door! Source citation Class HO107, roll 174817.

Ann Dee

[Mythology]

Glenys, I don't have time for proper digging, very tied up at the moment, but I will just draw your attention to this...

The kids of Thomas Dawes and Mary in Crich up to 1827 are all on the IGI - they've had three done together in 1827, then evidently given up going to church, turned nonconformist, or had the rest baptised in a parish that isn't covered, as the later ones aren't on there. So, from the baptisms, we don't have anything to show that Hannah is *definitely* Thomas and Mary's daughter.

Meanwhile, a Joseph Dawes has married Mary Wall in Crich 12 December 1830. No children of theirs on the IGI.

Where are this Joseph and Mary in 1841? At a quick glance I don't see a likely pair. Have they fallen over, and Thomas has taken the nipper in? "Daughter" on any census return is about as reliable as "Married" on a census return for one of my lot, so if you don't turn up anything to the contrary after investigating properly, Hannah *could* be the daughter of Joseph and Mary, and knows it.

[busyglen]

There's a Hannah Dawes on the 1851 census in Chatham Place, Camberwell, Peckham. On ancestry's record it says she is 10 years old but on the actual image she is shown as 18 years old. She is living with the family of John Norman, a leather seller, and is a servant. It says she is born in Middlesex, but this could be a mistake. It depends who answered the door! Source citation Class HO107, roll 174817.

Ann Dee

Thanks Ann.....my Hannah was shown as 29 on the 1861 Census, when she was married to Thomas Jones, which means that this Hannah could fit in if she came to London to work. As you say, place of birth given can vary from Census to Census as I have found to my cost!! It's only on the 1861 Census that she mentioned that she was born in Derbyshire, which I don't imagine she has plucked out of the air. Especially as the rest of the family are shown from London. If the family hadn't gone missing on the following Census, it may have given me more clues, but it was ever thus!!

Thanks for that info, much appreciated, I will hang on to it for the time being, as a possible. :)

Glenys

[busyglen]

Thanks Myth for the above, your ideas are really appreciated, but please don't take up too much of your own time.

I'm really not sure if Crich is the place I should be looking, but as I mentioned previously, there are so many Dawes here with biblical names and it's Derbyshire! It's the only one I have at the moment, and I still keep being drawn back to this family, even after looking elsewhere. It's quite `possible' that the scenario you are suggesting, could have happened....but I am getting a bit bogged down now trying to see the wood for the trees!

Looking at some transcribed PRs shown on the website mentioned here earlier, I found several christenings, one of which is a Joseph Dawes, son of Isaac & Elizabeth, occ. Stockinger..Jan 24th 1813. This is about the right age for Joseph according to the 1861 Census.

There is also a Joseph Dawes, son of Benjamin & Lydia, Framework Knitter, Feb 23rd 1817, but I think this is a bit too late, but what caught my eye, was an Hannah Daws christened Dec. 6th 1818 daur. of Benjamin & Lydia, also. Could this be Joseph's family and he named a daughter after his sister? It still doesn't answer whether I am looking at the right Joseph! Anyway, I'll see if I can find anything else out from the PR's although I think they only go up to 1825.

I've also gone back to the marriage cert. of Hannah Dawes and Thomas Jones, and looked at the witnessess. I discounted them as quite often they are a red herring, being someone else getting married or whatever, but who knows, they might figure somewhere, even though the marriage took place in Chelsea. The names were Henry Champion & Dorothy Sale, so could even be friends.

Anyway, I'm wittering on again, so will do a bit more hunting. Thanks Myth :)

Glenys

[busyglen]

Just while I think of it, Glenys, as you mentioning the Administration Grant has reminded me...
I have a feeling that due to a forum crash followed by memory failure on my part, I forgot to get back to you to confirm that I'd checked the death duty register just in case, but, as we expected with a low amount going to a descendant, no entry there - if there was any tax theoretically due from Maria (I can never remember the ever-changing rules), like most of them then where the amount was insignificant, they didn't bother to make her disturb the moths.

Sorry Myth.....missed this entry...it got hidden!

I assumed that this was the case, especially as the amount was quite small...well, I suppose not so small to her in those days! One is apt to forget the difference between £100 then and the same amount today.

I appreciated your help though, it meant a lot! ;)

Glenys