1871 Census - is there an index produced by anyone?

[Linda Bailey]

I am enjoying my 1871 census for Staffs which arrived last week :D (the clarity in comparision to the 1861 is fantastic), but I have been unable to find the two eldest children of my Shelley's
The Shelley family ran a pub: "The Bird in Hand" in Hilderstone. And the two oldest boys (Thomas H -age 3 and William - age 1) appear on the 1861 census living with their parents (William and Ann).
By the 1881 census Thomas is the Brewer at the Bird in Hand aged 23, and William is living with his parents at Leese House, Draycott In the Moors.

I have checked both locations and can't find either brother. Does anyone have access to an index where they could look up both William Shelley aged 11 and Thomas Houldcroft Shelley aged 13 in 1871?

Thank you very much.

Linda

[Procat]

Hi Linda,

I have just checked Ancestry online (not yet complete however) and could not pick them up in 1871 under Shelley or Shelly.

[Linda Bailey]

Hi Linda,

I have just checked Ancestry online (not yet complete however) and could not pick them up in 1871 under Shelley or Shelly.

Thank you very much for looking (and trying both surnames - that is how I lost one of them on the 1901 census).

Linda

[Pamela Hall]

There has been an index produced for the 1871 census for North Staffs.

I will check my index and get back to you.

Cheers
Pam
Stoke on Trent

[Pamela Hall]

I've checked the index and the census and no sign of the two boys in the immediate area.
I however notice that their mother was born in Horton - I am assuming this is the Horton near to Leek and not the Haughton near to Gnosall.

Their parents were married in 1856 at Christ Church, Hilderstone. William Shelley and Ann Holcroft.

I wonder if the boys were with grandparents or aunts and uncles. It is worth a try.

I will check the marriage entry to see if it gives any clues when I am at Stafford tomorrow.

Cheers
Pam.

[panda]

Hi,

I have found them on the 1871. RG10/2824 District Stone, Folio 57 page 14

Hope this helps

[Linda Bailey]

Hi
That is the page that their family is on in Hilderstone but not Thomas and William.
However you have helped me with the Census page numbering. I have never understood properly :o, the last numbers, but if I understand correctly now, the filio number is the number stamped into the right hand corner that only increases every other page, and the page number is used to distinguish between the two pages with the same folio number :).
Is this correct?

Thank you

Linda

[Procat]

Hi Linda,

Indeed you are correct.

In addition there is also a householders schedule number which runs down the left column of each page which can narrow things down even more - though most people tend not to refer to them.

For example, your family is recorded in Ancestry as:

Source information: RG10/2824
Registration district: Stone
Sub-registration district: Stone
ED, institution, or vessel: 14
Folio: 57
Page: 14
Household schedule number: 67

[Pamela Hall]

I've checked the index and the census and no sign of the two boys in the immediate area.
I however notice that their mother was born in Horton - I am assuming this is the Horton near to Leek and not the Haughton near to Gnosall.

Their parents were married in 1856 at Christ Church, Hilderstone. William Shelley and Ann Holcroft.

I wonder if the boys were with grandparents or aunts and uncles. It is worth a try.

I will check the marriage entry to see if it gives any clues when I am at Stafford tomorrow.

Cheers
Pam.
I checked out the marriage entry at Hilderstone and the details are as follows

D5904/1/2 Entry No 30
4th Dec 1856
William Shelley/full age/bach/Farmer/Hilderstone/John Shelley/Innkeeper
Ann Holcroft (signed Houldcroft)/full age/spin/ no occ./Spot Grange/Thomas Holcroft/Farmer
witnesses William Houldcroft, Mary Alcock.

I hope this helps you a little, but I still haven't found the two boys.

Pam.

[Linda Bailey]

Thank you very much for the information. No I didn't have all that information, though I did know his father's name and that he was an inn-keeper.
I spent a couple of hours searching the 1871 census trying to guess where they might be, looking at the nearby areas.
Now it will be kids off to school and then see if I can find Spot Grange which I have never heard of.

I appreciate the time you also must have put into this too - Thank you :).

Linda

[Jeanette]

Hello Linda

If you haven't already found Spot Grange the link below might give an indication - it's the 3rd application down, listed as Spot Grange, Stone, Staffs

www.staffordbc.gov.uk/live/Documents/Weekly%20Planning%20Applications/2004/Feb-12-2004-Weekly-List.pdf (http://www.staffordbc.gov.uk/live/Documents/Weekly%20Planning%20Applications/2004/Feb-12-2004-Weekly-List.pdf)

Cheers, Jeanette

[Linda Bailey]

After Pamela's suggestion about the possiblity of them being with relations I started looking for Ann's father Thomas Holdcroft.

I am pretty certain I have found her father Thomas Holdcroft and family on the 1871 census at Cotwalton which is very near Spot Grange. No the boys are not with the grandparents. However to prove that this was the correct family I tried to find them on the 1851 census when hopefully Ann would still be living at home.

From the 1871 census information there were 3 children with the following ages and all born in Aston. Thomas 28, Eliza 26 and Samuel 23.
On checking 1881 census information for the men, Thomas is now married and living at Checkley giving Horton as his birthplace, and Samuel is married and living at Brocton and gives his birthplace as Cowhall???
In 1901 (I haven't checked the actual images yet), Thomas gives his birthplace as Leek, and Samuel as Hildersham (which I presume is a mistranscription of Hilderstone which I suspect is wrong).

Incidently Ann Shelley nee Holdcroft gives her birth location as Horton each time. (In 1861, 1871, 1881, and 1901)

(I am pretty certain this is the correct family as Samuel Holdcroft had a son George age 1 in 1881 who is a visitor with Ann Miller nee Shelley -the sister of Ann's husband - I had noticed him before but couldn't work out how he fitted into my tree.)

Actually what I am asking is where is Aston, there seem to be a number in Staffordshire - very small hamlets. Is there an Aston near Horton? I have checked the Aston in the Stone peice of the 1851 census and not found them there.

Linda

[helxx]

Well I for one hope you find these two boys! what a mystery.

Re the 1881 census and the birth of Samuel, I could be wrong but maybe 'Cowhall' is actually 'Caverswall'?

One of my rellies was down as being born in 'Crockstone' which was in fact 'Croxton!'

[Jo Simpsons]

Ive just looked at the 1901 census, and if I am looking at the right one

Samuel Houldcroft, 53, Farmer, own account, Staffs, Hilderstone
Mary A, 47, Bel?
Ethel, 25, Hilderstone
George, 21, farmers son, he was deaf from childhood too. Hilderstone
Dora, 15, Brocton
Alice Suape, 20, general servant, Hilderstone
John Brown, 16, farm boy, Wheaton, Aston

Not the boys but if it is any use I can send the page to you.
Jo:)

[Linda Bailey]

Thank you Jo - I would appreciate the actual image, and yes that is the correct family, I am just questioning that Samuel states Hilderstone as his place of birth. As a family they don't seem to have stuck to the same story each time they filled in the census information.

I've now found them on the 1861 census and they are at Cotwalton at Spot, and for their place of birth this time they give Horton for all the children.

I've been trying to check directories to see if I could find Thomas Holdcroft and work out where they would be in 1851, but 1861 is the first directory I can find him on, by which time he has moved to Cotwalton.

Linda

[Jo Simpsons]

Hi Linda,
I have just posted the image off to you. Hope it comes through ok
Best wishes
Jo :)

[Pamela Hall]

Hi Linda
Have you tried the Staffordshire BMD indexes on

www.staffordshirebmd.org.uk

If you find anything you need checking on there just let me know - I have had a lot to do with the typing of these indexes.

Pam.

[stokie-steve]

I am enjoying my 1871 census for Staffs which arrived last week :D (the clarity in comparision to the 1861 is fantastic), but I have been unable to find the two eldest children of my Shelley's
The Shelley family ran a pub: "The Bird in Hand" in Hilderstone. And the two oldest boys (Thomas H -age 3 and William - age 1) appear on the 1861 census living with their parents (William and Ann).
By the 1881 census Thomas is the Brewer at the Bird in Hand aged 23, and William is living with his parents at Leese House, Draycott In the Moors.

I have checked both locations and can't find either brother. Does anyone have access to an index where they could look up both William Shelley aged 11 and Thomas Houldcroft Shelley aged 13 in 1871?

Thank you very much.

Linda
Originally Posted by stokie-steve
hi there linda i recently purchased from a car boot sale in staffordshire,the items included indentures (deeds) dating back to 1804 to 1919 seven included about the bird in hand in hilderstone relating to the shelly family,and on one of the indentures dating 1892 the name mr T H shelley is written, also on indentures is william shelley,i also have two watercolour paintings of the bird in hand public house with the shelley breweries name on the side (old paintings),plus a old photo of mr and mrs tom shelley in the 1920's.ithought i might e-mail you to see if these item are of interest to you as i was looking up a bit of history on the items and found this webpage.please e-mail me back

[get2BJ]

Dear Linda,

I followed this thread with interest when it was most active a week or so ago.


...can't find either brother. Does anyone have access to an index where they could look up both William Shelley aged 11 and Thomas Houldcroft Shelley aged 13 in 1871?

Thank you very much.

LindaAt the risk of being wrong I would like to submit these two entries as possibles for the boys William and Thomas Shelley:

1871 - All at Cheadle Road, Cheadle, Checkley, Staffs:
Samuel Cope, head, married, 58, Income from Houses and Mos(*)i(**), Staffordshire, Tean, Checkley
Ann Cope, wife, married, 59, wife, Staffordshire, Tean, Checkley
Mary Finder, niece, unmarried, 19, Assistant, Staffordshire, Huntley, Cheadle
William Shelley, boarder, unmarried, 10, Scholar, Staffordshire, Stone
RG10/2891, Folio 41, Page 13.

Please note - William has been mistranscribed in the index as being about 70 years old instead of 10 which is why you have probably missed him in the past.

Checkley is 7.7 miles away from Stone.

Continued/...

[get2BJ]

1871 - All at The Boro', Hinckley, Leicestershire:
Joseph Moore, head, married, 55, Butcher, Burbage, Leics
Harriett, wife, married, 49, Wife, Hinckley, Leics
Harriett, daug, unmarried, 25, School Mistress, Hinckley, Leics
Rose, daug, unmarried, 14, Pupil Teacher, Hinckley, Leics
Clara, daug, unmarried, 13, Milliner's Apprentice, Hinckley, Leics
Arthur, son, unmarried, 10, Scholar, Hinckley, Leics
Winifred, daug, unmarried, 9, Scholar, Hinckley, Leics
Lilia, daug, 5, unmarried, 5, Scholar, Hickley, Leics
Augustus, son, 2, Hinckley, Leics
Walter, son, 1, Hinckley, Leics
Thomas Shelly, apprentice, unmarried, 16, Butcher's Apprentice, Stone, Staffs
RG10/3236, Folio 49, Page 2 and 3

I know that the age of Thomas is not as we would expect (+2/3yrs) but I can see a situation where people may have lied about their ages to get apprenticeships. This location of Hinckley is 40.7 miles from Stone.

Of the two boys I think this one is probably most 'iffy', but you may have other info which could make this Thomas Shelly a likely candidate. Didn't you say the spelling of Shelley/Shelly was interchanged?

I hope this helps you a little, if only for elimination purposes.

Best Wishes

Brenda

[Linda Bailey]

Thank you very much for your efforts Brenda. It is appreciated.

In the last message you suggest that Thomas could be a butcher's apprentice - and I'm inclined to discount this one as his father was a brewer/publican and the pub remained in the family and passed to onto Thomas himself, so I can't imagine that he would become a butcher's apprentice.

And you are correct about Shelley/Shelly being interchangable - I lost William in the 1901 census until I tried that.

For the other missing child - William his brother, I think your suggestion:

1871 - All at Cheadle Road, Cheadle, Checkley, Staffs:
Samuel Cope, head, married, 58, Income from Houses and Mos(*)i(**), Staffordshire, Tean, Checkley
Ann Cope, wife, married, 59, wife, Staffordshire, Tean, Checkley
Mary Finder, niece, unmarried, 19, Assistant, Staffordshire, Huntley, Cheadle
William Shelley, boarder, unmarried, 10, Scholar, Staffordshire, Stone
RG10/2891, Folio 41, Page 13.

Could definately be possible.

One of William's brothers married a Mary Cope from Tean - although with different parents, who lived at the Roe Buck Inn, Checkley but perhaps there is a link between those two Cope families. I can't look at the image for a week or two as all my CD's are in storage whilst the decorators are in. But I might try following this Cope family and seeing if there are any links using the other census CD's. (Though I notice in my notes that that William Cope, father of Mary(the Cope family that married Samuel Shelley), seemed to list his occupation as a butcher and farmer - maybe the above isn't so unlikely). I tried looking for Samuel and Ann on the 1881 online but I couldn't find them together and I have found a likely death on StaffsBMD for a Samuel age 64 in 1877 in Cheadle. Though I think I found Ann Cope as a widow, acting as a housekeeper in the 1881 census.

I can't find any entries under the surname of Finder on Staffs BMD at all so I have been unable to find Mary on the 1881 census.

Thank you again - its is certainly a lead I will follow up.

[get2BJ]

Hi Linda,

I'm glad the info was useful, I wish all my ancestors were as visible as this on the census years!

Regarding the name Finder, the unmarried niece with the Cope family in 1871 - well that is only my opinion of how the name read. Another person viewing it may well see something different.

Any takers? 1871 - RG10/2891, Folio 41, Page 13.

Good luck with your searching,

Brenda