London Newspapers

[Mutley]

I have just received a death certificate. He died in Southwark Infirmary in E. Dulwich Grove, Camberwell on 11 July 1910.
The Informant box has:
Certificate received from G.P. Wyatt, Coroner Surrey and London.
Inquest held 12 July 1910.

I have search the forum and seemingly inquest information is best found in Newspapers. Does anyone know which newspaper would be the likely one and can I access it online or is it a case of going to the British Library?

I also believe after looking at the Hospital site and Metropolitan Archives that the hospital records are subject to the 100 year rule. Is that right?

Thanks in advance
Mutley

[Jane M]

Hi Mutley,
I think you're right on all counts. Coroners reports & hospital records are subject to the 100 year closure. The British Library Newspaper collections held at Colindale North London (not the BL itself) requires a personal visit to view any possible articles but their holdings can be checked on their website http://www.bl.uk/collections/newspapers.html
What was the name of this person & how did they die? Was it an accident? I can look at the Times index for you.
If you can establish where the incident took place you can Google for the local newspaper to see if they have an archive going back that far.

Jane

[Mutley]

Thanks Jane,
I have tried that link and googling for hours but I still cannot find for sure which newspaper covered the area.
It was a rather nasty suicide and I think, probably, while in the Infirmary. I am loathe to give out the full details as I know these posts go out on the web. I will private message. Any information would be gratefully received. I think I am still in shock and cannot quite get my head around it.

Mutley

[Colin Moretti]

You could try emailing the Southwark Local Studies:
http://www.southwark.gov.uk/DiscoverSouthwark/LocalStudiesLibrary/
Since you know the date they might well look at the local paper for you. I've found that most local studies libraries are very helpful with quick look-ups

Good luck

Colin

[Mutley]

Thanks Colin,

An email is on it's way, let's hope they reply with some information.

Mutley

[Geoffers]

I have search the forum and seemingly inquest information is best found in Newspapers. Does anyone know which newspaper would be the likely one and can I access it online or is it a case of going to the British Library?
Colindale Library will sell copies of newspapers on microfilm which would save a journey. But you would need to know roughly when the inquest/death was reported as well as the newspaper.

Geoffers

[Jane M]

Sorry Geoffers but no sign of it being reported in the Times newspaper,


Jane

[Mutley]

Thanks for trying.
I think, knowing my lot, it would more likely be the
The Sun or the News of the World (Sunday Editions) :(

Mutley

[Jane M]

Sorry Mutley, I called you Geoffers in my last post:o

I would think that the local rather than the national newspapers would have reported on the inquest so check the British Library index for newspapers of Camberwell of that period. If you're planning a UK trip you can check-out the library yourself (it's fascinating!)
Good luck,

Jane

[Mutley]

That's OK Jane, I understood the error.
Thanks so much for your interest. I also found out that Southwark Infirmary was originally St Saviour's Workhouse and is now Dulwich Hospital. They have a large archive section that can be visited.
Unfortunately, I will not be back to the UK for a few years so I will have to consider a professional researcher's services unless I see a thread for someone else who decides to look up the workhouse.
Thanks again.
Mutley

[Jane M]

Mutley, you might be interested in this site if you haven't already seen it;

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/index.html?StSaviour/StSaviour.shtml

I was digging around for further information on the infirmary & happened upon this from one of the LMA information leaflets;

Workhouse Registers


Registers of patients in workhouse infirmaries which passed from the Boards of Guardians to the London County Council or the Middlesex County Council then to London Metropolitan Archives and which were never in the possession of N.H.S. hospitals are not public records. Therefore they are not closed for 100 years, though they are closed for 65 years. These registers are catalogued with the archives of the Boards of Guardians. Entries in the Hospital Records Database indicate whether any hospital has ever been a workhouse or workhouse infirmary and include references to any patients’ registers surviving amongst the Board of Guardians’ records. The archives of Middlesex County Council include one admission and discharge register for Wellhouse Hospital 1931-1940 (MCC/WE/PA/1/210). Requests for access to any of these registers which are less than 65 years old should be addressed to the Head Archivist of London Metropolitan Archives. Access is not normally granted for genealogical research. Applicants must sign an undertaking to abide by specified conditions.

So it might be worth your while in contacting the LMA to see if they can give you that information as it's more than 65 years. They also have a service available for searching.



Best of luck,



Jane

[erica bauman]

Hi, Mutley. It's possible that the newspaper you need is The South London Press. I'm not sure if they were in print that long ago, But they should know who was.regards Erica

[Mutley]

Thanks very much,
I'd better go get my shovel as I think you've given me more digging to do :)
Will keep you informed

Mutley

[Peter Goodey]

So it might be worth your while in contacting the LMA to see if they can give you that information as it's more than 65 years
I'm afraid not. Dulwich Hospital is an NHS hospital and records are therefore subject to 100 year closure.

The important question however is 'what does 100 year closure mean?'.

A little judicious searching of these very forums might just provide an answer.

[Mutley]

I'm afraid not. Dulwich Hospital is an NHS hospital and records are therefore subject to 100 year closure.

The important question however is 'what does 100 year closure mean?'.

A little judicious searching of these very forums might just provide an answer.

I have done so much searching I am really confused now. You have hit the nail on the head with "what does XX year closure mean?"

On this forum I read that coroners reports are subject to a 75 year rule though not all survive.
Asylums are 100 years (and he may have been in that part of the hospital.) Although permissions can be granted???

Dulwich Hospital site, if they still have the records, say some are l00 years, others are 60 years but with permission you may have access. Many records have been passed to the LMA
LMA say 65 years if it was a workhouse and the records were not in possession of the NHS.
Now... it was the workhouse but in 1887 it became part of the Southwark Union and did not become a NHS hospital until 1948.

As the event I wish to access was 1910 when did those records go to the LMA before or after 1948 or does that not count? but they might still be with Dulwich which is NHS :confused:

Proof for access???? I have his marriage and death certificate, his son's birth, marriage and death certificates, his son's BMDs and his son's BMDs but if access is not granted for genealogical research it don't do me no good!

I thought a newspaper report would be more simple to find but that's another story......... I cannot go to Collingwood and that seems to be the only place to find them.

I'd just like to find out why the poor s** did what he did....

Mutley, (thoroughly discouraged) and if anyone else can make sense of this they are a better man than I am........

[Omega]

|hug| sympathy abounds Mutly plod on soldier.

Deirdre

[Peter Goodey]

I have done so much searching I am really confused now. You have hit the nail on the head with "what does XX year closure mean?"

Sorry I was feeling ready for bed when I wrote that and didn't have the energy to elucidate.

Basically I think you have to get clearance from the relevant NHS authority, with proof of death and a plausible reason why you want to see it, to view a specific record. This clearance authorises the holder of the records to release the specific record. The files will still not be open for browsing.

The Hospital Record Database shows that Dulwich Hospital hold the following.

Administrative
1825 - 1972


Admission & Discharge
1825 - 1872


Staff
1893 - 1947


Clinical & Patients
1892 - 1970

Hope this helps.

[Mutley]

Deirdre - Thanks, I have a stinking cold at the moment and a hug from afar is just what I needed :)

Peter - Thanks also. Within the reams of paper I have printed I knew that bit was somewhere but couldn't find it again.

I had this sentence from the LMA:
London Metropolitan Archives holds records of St Saviours Infirmary including Guardians' minute books (1836-1930);
Births (1848-94);
Deaths (1848-1938);
Creed register (1856-1938);
Admissions and discharges (1840-57, 1871, 1903-38);
Dulwich Hospital staff records, 1887-1920;
General administrative records, 1888-1948.

So for anyone else interested in this subject it looks like.....

Death info will be at LMA

Clinical and Patients records at Dulwich.

CORONER’S INQUESTS AFTER 1788
CLRO has a complete series of Coroner’s inquests and depositions for the City of London 1788-1992, and for the ancient Borough of Southwark 1788-1932 These records are closed for 75 years, and if you wish to see the closed records, you need to obtain written permission from the present Coroner for the City of London.

Copies of the City of London’s local newspaper, the City Press (succeeded by the City Recorder) from 1857 are held on microfilm by the Printed Books Section of Guildhall Library Southwark local newspapers after 1856 are held by Southwark Local Studies Library.

I just have to find out now if I can receive the information by post or if I have to go in person........

Mutley |banghead|

[Sandra Parker]

Hi Mutley,

I too had a relative whose inquest was not available through archives. I have searched, but cannot find the site I used, but I'm pretty sure it was the http://www.bl.uk/collections/newspapers.html (http://www.bl.uk/collections/newspapers.html)

As I had the dates of the 2 prt inquest and I had identified (real stab in the dark stuff) the likely newspapers in the area, I requested they search for my grandad. I had the exact details friom his death certificate in 1924 in District of Wandsworth, Sub district of South West Battersea, in the County of London. I don't know how this fits geographically with your inquest, but the papers I had as possibles were:

(cont)

[Sandra Parker]

(cont. I hope!)

Streatham News and Wandsworth Advertiser 1900-1932

Balham, tooting, Mitchum News and Mercury 1921-1971

South Western Star 1905-1965

Tooting and Balham Gaqzette and Earlsfield Recorder 1919-1971

The Wandsworth Borough News 1900 to date


I struck it lucky with the Wandsworth Borough News and now have copies of the full page reproductions of the 2 relevant pages. It did cost me, but was well worth it. I did all mey searching on the net from here in Darwin,

So good luck with your search as well.
Sandra
Well, after much deleting and rewriting this time I hope I've defeated the dreaded repeating lurgy!)

[Mutley]

Thanks Sandra,
The message came through fine, though I nearly missed it because it was not in the new posts section and did not have a 'new mail' bit in my subscribed threads. I just spotted your name and thought I did not remember it on this thread.
I don't think Wandsworth is that far away from Camberwell.
I sent them an email and received an automated reply immediately to say they will respond in 5 days.
Included in the reply were several other links.

I am off to peruse.....

Thanks again, Mutley

[SueL]

Hi Mutley,

You seem to be having a hard time of it with this one :( I'm even more confused than you with all the if's, but's and maybe's about the 100 yr doodah...or the 65 yr...or the whatever blah blah blah...

If it helps at all, I visit the Newspaper Library every couple of months or so and I certainly wouldn't mind giving yours a "go" on my next visit? Regrettably, (what with Christmas, New Year, etc), I really can't say when my next trip will be, but if it's not before Christmas, then I expect to go sometime in the New Year....could you possibly hang on until then?

Kind regards,
from sueL (who used to live up the road from Dulwich hospital but then thats a piece of useless info!! ;) )

[Mutley]

Suel, I would be extremely grateful whenever it would be.

I have sent off loads of emails and if I do get a response I will send you a private message in case a post gets lost in the system.

I am also going to private message the details of the certificate so maybe you will understand why I would like further info.

Thanks so much |angel|

Mutley

[SueL]

OK Mutley, I've got your message so will take details with me next time I visit Colindale...

I just hope you're not in too much of a hurry??
Hang on in there...

suex

[Mutley]

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g250/iamtheinfidel/hangintheresmiley.gif

I sure will!

Thanks, Mutley

[Huguenot]

Hi Mutley,

I've just found this site.

Did you ever get details of the Inquest you were looking for back in 2006?

I live just around a couple of corners from what became Dulwich Hospital, and am only a couple of bus rides away from the L.M.A.

Huguenot|wave|

[Mutley]

Hello Huguenot,
Welcome to the forum,

It seems a long time ago now that I was searching but no, the members that looked at the newspapers for me were unable to find anything out. At least, not regarding the inquest.

When you have the time to go on a hunt, drop me a PM and I will give you the details. I would still like to know so thanks for the very kind offer.