Help finding old streets in Leicester

[samhuzz]

Hello

I am trying to find a website that offers (free!) old maps of Leicester so I can work out where some of my ancestors lived. I know the majority were in the St Margarets Parish, and were demolished following regeneration by the Council in 1920s, but I have no idea where abouts they were. Any suggestions would be gratefully received.

Many thanks Samantha

[netsy]

Have you tried old-maps.co.uk. Not sure if it will give you street names though.

[samhuzz]

Hi Netsy

Thanks for that, although it didn't work when I tried it as it was undergoing maintenance. I will try again though.

Thanks again

Samantha

[tony vines]

I have a set of facsimile old OS maps of Leicester dating from the 19th century. I don't mind doing a few searches but if you want to do this regularly (or a lot) you might want to pay just a few pounds for your own. If you want to try a few let me have the street names. I can only tell you where they are in relation to modern streets so I will assume that you either know Leicester well or can see something like multimap.com

regards

[samhuzz]

Hello Tony

Thanks for the offer. I am interested in finding out where the Knighton Arms pub was as my great great grandfather ran it. If you could give me even a vague idea it would really help.

Thanks Samantha

[tony vines]

Hi Samantha

I don't think that my old maps have pub names on them but my brother is involved with the licensed property trade and he may know. If so I'll get back to you.

regards

Tony

[tony vines]

Samantha

My brother has been in the licensed property valuation business in Leicester for around 30 years and he knows pretty much every pub in the city as a result but he does not know of one that used to be called The Knighton Arms. He and I both wonder whether The Craddock Arms in Knighton used to be called that. However, there are streets in the city with the word Knighton in them and it is also conceivable that one such had a pub of that name at some stage.

Sorry not to have been of more help.

regards

[tony vines]

Samantha

Following my last reply I checked out Leicester University Historical Directories website /www.
historicaldirectories.org/ and then did a search of the Kelly's Directory for 1891 under Public Houses. The entry I found is as follows
"Knighton Arms, Henry Whetton, Knighton lane, Aylestone park, Leicester"

Knighton Lane is east of Aylestone Road, just north of the Leicestershire Cricket Ground at Grace Road. It seems that your ancestor's name was slightly different than the way you spelt it, at least according to Kelly's. I could find no reference to the pub or Henry in the 1908 Kelly's.

Glad we got there in the end. Good hunting

cheers

[samhuzz]

Hello Tony

Thanks very much for your help. I also had a look in the Kellys directory for 1886 in Leicester Library for Henry Whatton and found him as a beer retailer and shop keeper in Knighton Lane, A.P (which I now realise must be Aylestone Park). This makes sense as his wife's parents ran the Rutland Hotel which I believe is in the same area. Don't know why he would have been described as a shop keeper in the first one though and then a pub in the second, but the addresses fit.

Thanks for going to so much trouble for me, and please thank your brother as well,

Kind regards

Samantha

[samhuzz]

Hi again Tony

This bloke is causing me some trouble! I have looked up Henry on Ancestry in 1891 and he is down as living in Knighton Lane, but as a blacksmith. Don't know how much you know about these things, but is it normal to have two jobs like this in those times?

Seems pretty strange to me,

Samantha

[samhuzz]

PPS

If ever I can help you out with anything, I have a subscription with 1837 and Ancestry, I don't mind helping you as you've helped me.

Samantha

[tony vines]

Hi Samantha

I agree that at first sight being both a blacksmith and selling beer does seem odd. I am not currently subscribed to Ancestry but does it tell you whether he was a blacksmith or a journeyman blacksmith? I ask because effectively the latter was a lesser type of blacksmith or learner and may not have had his own smithy. I've found in my family and my wife's that journeymen travelled around more, perhaps because there was not enough work for more than one blacksmith in a smithy or maybe a son came into the business and took the journeyman's place. There could be any number of reasons for changing jobs and Knighton was also close to the city so there would have been more opportunity to change jobs than would have been the case in the villages.

I have an ancestor who was a wheelwright and publican. Wheelrights and blacksmiths have an affinity (his father was a blacksmith). I'm sure that both jobs worked up a powerful thirst and maybe the idea of owning the means to slake his thirst appealed:)

Given the spelling difference in the Kelly's entry I found are you absolutely sure that you are not looking at two different people?

Just a few thoughts.....!

cheers|cheers|

[samhuzz]

Hello Tony

Yes, my grandma (his granddaughter) said that he owned several pubs at different times throughout Leicestershire. Mind you this family are pretty big drinkers so this is probably where they got it from! I have also been told that he ran the Knighton Arms from one of his daughter's descendants. His father was also a blacksmith as were several of his brothers. He also ran a pub in Long Clawson which I know about. Don't know how he had all this time on his hands as he was married with about five children and my grandma said there were several mistresses! Busy man! What does it mean when it says journeyman as my grandma's other grandad is listed on a birth certificate as a dyer (journeyman).

Thanks again

Samantha

[samhuzz]

PS

Now I remember the original reason why I started this thread! I am looking for where City Wall Street was in Leicester. It is not shown on any current maps. I presume its near the old city wall, but I don't even know whereabouts this is.

Samantha

[tony vines]

Samantha

Sorry for the delay but I've been abroad on business.

Here is part of a definition of Journeyman from Wilkipedia

"A journeyman is a tradesman or craftsman who has completed an apprenticeship but is not yet able to set up his or her own workshop as a master. In parts of Europe, as in later medieval Germany, spending time as a journeyman (Geselle), moving from one town to another to gain experience of different workshops, was an important part of the training of an aspirant master. In later medieval England, however, most journeymen remained as employees throughout their careers, lacking the financial resources to set up their own workshops."

Just as a tip, try using Google when questions like this pop up. It is often able to supply an answer, even on family history things.

Here's another site you may find very useful for all sorts of Leicester matters, 'leicestershire roots.' It does have a list of old and current street names but it doesn't have City Wall Street which may suggest that the street disappeared and does not have a modern equivalent. I guess that it must be near the old city wall and you can follow a link on this site to a map of old Leicester showing where the wall was. You can compare it to a modern map to see what those streets are called now. Many are still there. I've also not so far found it on my old maps. Do you have any clues?

[samhuzz]

Hi Tony,

Hope you had a good trip. On the 1901 census, City Wall Street comes after Long Lane, but I don't think this exists now either. Yes, now I look at the census again, it says Arthur Hill's job description is fabric dyer's labourer. Its on my great grandma's birth certificate that it says about the journeyman. Would this be something to do with the hosiery trade in Leicester do you think? I know from my grandma that later on they lived in the Sanvey Gate area, which is where a lot of these factories were, is that anywhere near the city wall? Sorry to keep asking so many questions. I'll have a look at that Leicestershire Website, I have not noticed that one before.

Thanks

Samantha

[tony vines]

Hi Samantha

Long Lane was a narrow lane that ran almost parallel to, but south of the line of the old city wall. Sanvey Gate was on the far side of the line of the wall i.e. to the north of it and just a few yards away from the wall. It also ran parallel to Long Lane. Part of Sanvey Gate still remains so you can get an idea where it was and of the line of the wall. Although by 1901 the wall at this point had long since disappeared this section was the northern boundary of the medieval town. It used to run roughly NE to SW starting from near St. Margaret's Church and ending at the River Soar. My map is dated 1904 but it does not show City Wall St. nearby and it may be that the name had changed in the previous 2 years.

Journeyman is effectively a description of the level of skill of a craftsman. After completing your apprenticeship you became a journeyman and may have stayed that way for the rest of your working life. The higher skilled craftsmen, especially those with their own premises, became master craftsman.

You say that he was a fabric dyer and you're absolutely right that Leicester was a major centre for hosiery and for other wool products. Fabric suggests something other than hosiery but it might just be a catch-all title and cover hosiery dying as well.

cheers

[samhuzz]

Hi Tony

Sorry for the delay in replying. Thanks so much for helping me. I have been looking on one of your earlier suggestions, historicaldirectories, and its a bit addictive, isn't it? Especially if you have ancestors in a business etc. If ever you need my help with anything, I live in Leicestershire, so might have an idea about locations of places (as you saw I advised Kath) etc, even if I don't have much of an idea about much else :) Also as I mentioned before, I've got Ancestry and 1837 (although I think most people have now), so don't hesitate to ask, just pm me.

Thanks

Samantha

PS I am going to go to the Records Office next time I get time off work, last week off I had it was closed, so let me know if you want anything looking up.

[tony vines]

Hi Sam

Glad you liked the HD site and thank you for your very generous offer.

Happy hunting

best regards

[adrian17]

It was not unusual for the wife to run the pub and the husband to hold down a job.

Adrian

[tony vines]

Now I like that idea Adrian. It must take all the fun out of propping up the bar if you're on the wrong side of it. So let let her do the hard bit and enjoy a well-earned drink or several after work I say!!! Up the workers!

cheers

Hic!!!

[Eric Langley]

Hello, I am new to this forum, but I notice that Tony Vines is very knowledgeable about the old Leicester, so although I have started a new thread with this question, I would also like to jump into this thread with it.

Where was Lower Church Gate in the 1861 Census and others?

From studying various censuses, I would deduce that Lower Church Gate is now Pasture Lane parallel to St. Margaret's Way. Is this correct?

Thanking you for anything you can offer,

Eric Langley
Courtenay, B.C.
Canada

[Peter_uk_can]

See Eric's other post for Lower Church Gate info...