Quite the opposite

[chopendoz]

I don't quite know where to post this but this is a similar subject - in reverse. How do I locate records of someone who left New York between 1818 and 1839 to live in England? I am not sure if it was a case of returning immigrants or the family moved for other reasons. Indetured servitude had virtually ceased in 1820. Travel would entail taking passage on a sailing ship most likely as steamships didn't really start to operate until after 1838. I understand there may have been passports involved.
Can anyone help?

[Geoffers]

Passports were rarely issued to British nationals until WW1, see TNA's research guide; http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=109

and inward passenger lists are rare before 1878 - see another TNA research guide: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=106

Does this person turn up in any English census returns? Any clues from his/her occupation? Any clues as to wy they left America from local records in New York? (Is that the city or somewhere else in the state?)

Do any of the person's relatives turn up in American census records? - Possibly indicating if they were an English family who emigrated and this person of yours simply wanted to return to England?

Geoffers

[chopendoz]

Thank you for your reply. There are references to this lady in the 1841, 1851
& 1861 Censuses and a marriage which seems to fit.
Possible Marriages 1837-1842 Free BMD Index Sept Qtr 1839 Kings Norton
Frederick Mascall - Mary Eliza Green Harding.
She was born in 1818 in East New York, New York (no county given) and listed in the 1861 Census as :- Mary Mascall abt 1818 East New York, New York, American Samoa*, Wife. Ladies feather dresser *(probably deaf & dumb)
Frederick Mascall/Masell/Mackall was a tailor.
I wonder what her name means. In those days having 3 forenames was uncommon (except for the upper class who liked to add the names of their ancestors. Was Mary upper class? Or is the ‘Green’ (unusual forename in itself) merely the name of a former husband suggesting that she was widow when she married Frederick Mascall ? How or why did she get to Birmingham? At a time when thousands of immigrants were arriving in New York, she was leaving?

[chopendoz]

I just noticed that on the 1851 census she is listed as a 'British subject' which either means that she was born in New York of British parents or took British citizenship when she got married. Where would I find a record of either of those events?

[Geoffers]

Possible Marriages 1837-1842 Free BMD Index Sept Qtr 1839 Kings Norton Frederick Mascall - Mary Eliza Green Harding.
She was born in 1818 in East New York, New York (no county given) and listed in the 1861 Census as :- Mary Mascall abt 1818 East New York, New York, American Samoa*, Wife. Ladies feather dresser *(probably deaf & dumb)
Frederick Mascall/Masell/Mackall was a tailor.
In looking for variant spellings, don't forget MASK(A/E)LL


In those days having 3 forenames was uncommon (except for the upper class who liked to add the names of their ancestors.
It may have been so restricted in America, but is not that uncommon in England - and if she was of British parents this may not have been so unusual.

continued....

[Geoffers]

part 2.....


Or is the ‘Green’ (unusual forename in itself) merely the name of a former husband suggesting that she was widow when she married Frederick Mascall ?
Amongst English records it quite often refers to the maiden surname of the mother - or some distant ancestor in whcih case it often turns up as a common forename in different descendent lines of he same family.


At a time when thousands of immigrants were arriving in New York, she was leaving?
Whilst there was a good deal of emigration taking place - a search of census records shows that the traffic was by no means one-way.

continued....

[Geoffers]

part 3......


I just noticed that on the 1851 census she is listed as a 'British subject' which either means that she was born in New York of British parents or took British citizenship when she got married.By 1861, English census records mark a distinction between 'British Subjects' and 'Naturalised British Subjects' - a record of her being a British Subject from 1861 onwards, may hint at her being born of British Parents.

continued.....

[Geoffers]

part 4.....


Where would I find a record of either of those events?This TNA reseach guide deals with naturalisation
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=242
This guide deals with foreing and consular records
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/rdleaflet.asp?sLeafletID=214
Though my understanding is that you're unlikely to find records in the UK of British births in America from this period - and from experience, American records from this period leave a lot to be desired

Geoffers

[Geoffers]

One final thought - if you know her dad's name - and even though he died abroad, he had some property in the UK - you may find his will, which may give some useful information.

Her dad's name (and occupation) should be recorded on the marriage certificate to which you referred.

Geoffers

[chopendoz]

Thank you for your input. It seems that I will have to get a copy of the marriage Certificate in oder to make progress.
I can only assume that her father's name was Harding. Just a thought... I don't know when immigrant ships first sailed into New York but I may search the passenger lists of those ships BEFORE her birth in 1818 on the assumption that her family were returning immigrants. Another avenue for discovery are schools for the deaf. Also, she must have some record of her existence in the UK prior to her marriage in 1839 - if I find nothing it would imply that her sailing date from New York was much closer to 1839 than 1818. Thanks again for your help.

[Geoffers]

Thank you for your input. It seems that I will have to get a copy of the marriage Certificate in oder to make progress.That would seem to be a wise move


I may search the passenger lists of those ships BEFORE her birth in 1818Passenger lists for those emigrating to America may best be found at the point where the emigrants debarked. Passenger lists were not required to be kept until much later in the 19th century.


Also, she must have some record of her existence in the UK prior to her marriage in 1839Not necessarily, unless she had done something which required her details to be recorded. You won't find her in a census. The Tithe Redemption Returns only name heads of household. She wouldn't have been in the military. Your best bet is if she needed to go 'on the parish' - i.e. if she was poor and needed to receive assistance.

Geoffers