4th Durham Survey Regiment RA

[Robin McEwen-King]

We are pleased to have a copy of the new edition of the book 'Z Location or Survey in War' by Col's WHETTON and OGDEN
Published recently by Jim WHETTON

It is a first hand story of this regiment from its inception in Gateshead in 1937 to 1947. Covers what was a survey regiment about; how did the do their job and details their service during WWII.

This is a private publication and I have Jim's permission to pass on his address to anyone interested in obtaining a copy.


Our interest is in Margaret's father Clarence E HIRD who joined the then TA Regiment in April 1939 and served troughout the war. He was BQMS and long time Secretary of teh OCA.


Pleased to have contact with any others interested in thsi regiment.

Robin

[Enid James]

My father (William Burn) joined the 4th Durham Survey Regiment in Gateshead early in 1939. After service in the UK he went with the regiment to North Africa and in 1941 he was with the force that was sent to Greece. When Greece was overun he was captured in Corinth and spent the rest of the war ina POW camp in Austria.

I would be interested in any information about the 4th Durham Survey Regiment or anything specific about my father.

[Robin McEwen-King]

My father (William Burn) joined the 4th Durham Survey Regiment in Gateshead early in 1939. After service in the UK he went with the regiment to North Africa and in 1941 he was with the force that was sent to Greece. When Greece was overun he was captured in Corinth and spent the rest of the war ina POW camp in Austria.

I would be interested in any information about the 4th Durham Survey Regiment or anything specific about my father.

Are you still on this list?

please reply


Robin

[Kerrywood]

Sorry, Enid James is no longer a member of these forums.

[RichardV]

Hi Robin.

Just read this post you made some time ago. My father - Ron Vinton - was in the 4th Durham Survey Regiment for most of the war. He was in Greece, the first siege of Tobruk, Alamein and everything thereafter but sadly died in 1972 before I was old enough to talk with him about it all. I'd love to find out as much as possible about the regiment although I have already read "Z Location". Can you point me towards other sources?

Kind regards

Richard

[Jan1954]

Hello Richard - welcome to Brit-Gen,

Robin has not visited the forum in over a year, although he is still a member.

However, if you click on his user-name, a drop-down box will appear and one of the options is to send him a private message. If you do this, it should trigger an email to him, which hopefully will bring him back.

Thank you,

[Robin McEwen-King]

Hi Robin.

My father - Ron Vinton - was in the 4th Durham Survey Regiment for most of the war. He was in Greece, the first siege of Tobruk, Alamein and everything thereafter I'd love to find out as much as possible about the regiment although I have already read "Z Location". Can you point me towards other sources?

Kind regards

Richard

Hello Richard

Amazing the coincidences that happen .. we are reading the diaries of Margaret's dad (BQMS C E Hird) and were discussing the days of the battle of El Alamein this week. Shortly before he was in Syria and passes through Homs and Damascus when they were recalled to the Western Desert in preparation for a 'big push'.

There are several autobiographical articles on line .. will have to check our notes to find them again. We've recently applied for the service record of CEH to see if it adds anything to the story .. takes a long time to get the results 'up to a year' ....
We have the Nominal ROll of all who served and will dig it as it will have an immediate post war address for your father. CEH was secretary of the Comrades Association for many years (he died in 1977)

One item of interest is the Welcome Home Banquet which was held in Newcastle in 1946 - we have deposited a copy of the official programme at Gateshead Library.

We went to the funeral of Major John Balfour a couple of years ago over in Fife and Margaret wore her dad's medal as a tribute from all who served with him. She spoke to Maurice Howard a week before Christmas .. well in to his 902's he is possibly the last of the old boys .. he was captured in the fall of Tobruk and spent the rest of the war as a POW in Italy.

Finally for now we have photos of the Summer Camps in 1938 and 1939 of all who were there.


Regards

Robin and Margaret

[Robin McEwen-King]

I've checked in our files ....
The Nominal Roll shows Sur. R Vinton No 949554 landed with the regiment in Egypt in December 1940. The address for him is a Plymouth one.

We think that most of the regiment sailed to Egypt via South Africa on the same ship.. We have mementos of the voyage and the daily entries from CEH diary.


Robin

[RichardV]

Hi Robin.

Yes - that's Dad!

He joined up in July 1940 so won't be in the Summer Camp photos sadly. The main thing I have is a file of all the letters he sent home from that ship voyage all the way through to the end of the North African campaign - all have been through the censors and so there's very few names but I'd hope they'd be of interest. I am trying to type them up but that'll take some time - the idea was to blend his letters with references to the history related in "Z location", any photos I can find and - indeed anything else thats relevant. The aim is to have something for my two boys but it may be of further interest outside our family. Any scans you have of anything would be gratefully recieved - there are some (rather poor) snaps that I can dig out, scan and send to you: may be of someone you know!

With Dad returning to Plymouth after the war and passing away relatively early in life we have no record of him keeping up with the regiment. It would be fantastic to talk with someone like Maurice Howard although as I understand it the regiment was split in 2 early on with one half being in Tobruk the first time and the others being unlucky enough to be there the second - I'd assume that Dad and maurice were therefore in different halves.

Talk soon,

Richard

[Rachel75]

I'm really excited to find this thread. My Nans 1st husband was in the the 4th, sadly he died in June 1944. I would be very interested to find out what he did. His name was Michael Picker, if this means anything to anyone.

[Robin McEwen-King]

I'm really excited to find this thread. My Nans 1st husband was in the the 4th, sadly he died in June 1944. I would be very interested to find out what he did. His name was Michael Picker, if this means anything to anyone.

Yes he's in the 1947 Nominal Roll which honours those who died in the introduction.

DO you have any information about him?

I'll look up his service number for you.

where was he from ?

My father in law joined in early 1939 in his home town of Gateshead.

Have more information and can help with your man's war

Robin

[Rachel75]

Yes he's in the 1947 Nominal Roll which honours those who died in the introduction.

DO you have any information about him?

I'll look up his service number for you.

where was he from ?

My father in law joined in early 1939 in his home town of Gateshead.

Have more information and can help with your man's war

Robin

Hello Robin :clap:,
Thank you for your reply.
Michael was born in 1920, in Nottingham. He married my nan (Eva Mary Smith) in 1942.
All I know about him is this:-:detective:
119787 4th Survey regt. Royal Artillery Gunner Died 24th June 1944. Although there appears to be some variants on date. between 24th -27th June!
He died of septicaemia after being injured and is buried at Ryes War Cemetery at Bazenville. Which is a beautiful little cemetery on a tiny country road in the middle of no where.
I would very much like to find out when he went over to France, where he was heading and how he got injured. Which medical unit he was in when he died, and most importantly of all what would he have been doing (his objective)? apart from trying to survive!!
I would like to build up a picture of his movements and conflicts he encountered from when he joined the regt. right through to his last days in Normandy.
Hoping you can point me in the right direction as I have not the faintest where to start with what appears to be a mammoth task.
Kind regards
Rachel

[Robin McEwen-King]

Hi RCHEL
THE NOMINAL ROLL HAS DOW ON 27 JUNE 1944
His Service Number is listed as 1119787 .. note the triple one...
The details of his personal service are in his service record ,... take a look at
, http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/service_records.html

Click the link and down load the next of kin forms.

Meanwhile look at the Regimental history by googling for (survey in war Z location)

Should show a down load link.

Regards Robin

[Rachel75]

Hi Robin
Thanks for the information.
I have already started reading Z Location.
I will need to obtain a copy of Michaels birth cert. before requesting his service record.
Many thanks for your help it is very much appreciated.
I wish I could find some one who new Michael but think that is a wish with the stars. So I will be content on piecing together what I can about him from paper records.
A bit of family history for you.. Michaels wife Eva remarried several years later and had my Mum. Eva passed away 16th December 1988. His sister in law lived into her 80's and passed away in 2006. I should have asked more questions but when ever Nan was mentioned it caused upset.
Many thanks again for your help
Rachel

[Robin McEwen-King]

Hi Rachel
Looking at the date of Michael's marriage to Eva I would suggest that he was in training in the UK and drafted out to Egypt shortly after their marriage. As you will see in the history of the 4th Durham they lost a whole battery in the fall of Tobruk in June 1942. They needed a lot of men to rebuild No2 Battery. Looking at some lists from later in the war there are quite a few men with triple zero regimental numbers .. I see if I can put together a picture of when those men joined.
If you have any questions just ask ,,

Robin

[Rachel75]

Hi Robin,
Have only read a couple of pages of 'Z Location' Trying to do several things all at once!! :willy_nilly:
In one of the intros it say that by the time they got to D Day they were all in the XXX corps. Can I assume then that Michael would have gone across after the 50th and 49th Divisions and landed on Gold beach either at 'Item or Jig'? or am I jumping to conclusions...
Poor Michael and Eva being torn apart so soon after their marriage, although I doubt they were the only ones.
I have got to get a copy of Michaels Birth certificate before I can get his service records so it will be a while yet before I can confirm where he went exactly but I'm looking forward to finding out.
Rachel

[Robin McEwen-King]

I've had a look at the Nominal Roll of the Old Comrades Association and the men with triple one numbers mainly joined in September 1942 with a smaller group joining in February 1942 . The Feb group include two with numbers close to Michael's 1119687 Gunner Morris and 1119999 Gunner Malloch.

Given when and where Michael died he was in the Normandy invasion forces ... unfortunately the 4th Survey war diaries I have seen do not cover the actual units in Normandy during July 1944. One I do have covers their movements in England and I've not spotted his name ... this would be among the soldiers on guard duties.


I also have a copy of 'Larkhill Locators' the work by Massimo Magnelli Climpson which has a great name index and does include Michael. His death along with a comrade is noted but the source is the CWGC so no further information for you there.

What sources have you found for the different death dates?

Hope this helps

Regards

Robin

[Robin McEwen-King]

Hi Robin,
H one of the intros it say that by the time they got to D Day they were all in the XXX corps. Can I assume then that Michael would have gone across after the 50th and 49th Divisions and landed on Gold beach either at 'Item or Jig'? or am I jumping to conclusions...


Bit early to be sure but yes most likely across Gold beach. That is where Margaret's father landed on D+4. We were able to pin this down from his own personal diary and it is confirmed by his service record ... which shows he embarked on 6 June and disembarked on 10 June.

R

[Alan Swaby]

My Grandfather Robert Radford QM was in this regiment even thou he was from the east end, I was to young to ask him about it but mum said he never spoke about anyway. I remember that he swapped some food for a hardback book with photos in it, him and a mate got one each. I later found out they was massed produced, much like the football sticker books of today. Does anyone recall their Father/grandfather having one. Or can anyone tell me about the MBE my grandfather won. I look forward to reading the book, if this helps, my mother was born in BMH Cairo Eygpt Dec 1939 then the family was shipped back to England.

[Robin McEwen-King]

My Grandfather Robert Radford QM was in this regiment even thou he was from the east end, I was to young to ask him about it but mum said he never spoke about anyway. I remember that he swapped some food for a hardback book with photos in it, him and a mate got one each. I later found out they was massed produced, much like the football sticker books of today. Does anyone recall their Father/grandfather having one. Or can anyone tell me about the MBE my grandfather won. I look forward to reading the book, if this helps, my mother was born in BMH Cairo Eygpt Dec 1939 then the family was shipped back to England.

Have you seen his record at http://www.unithistories.com/officers/Army_officers_R01.html

I have the nominal roll for the 4th Durham and will get it out to check wat it has for him.


Name rings a bell and I suspect he is mentioned in various personal histories of the regiment.

more anon


robin

[Robin McEwen-King]

Re Lt RADFORD .. his recommendation is available from the National Archives at Kew ...online for £3.30 ... or possibly cheaper from one ot the TNA regulars who photograph documents for WW2 researchers.

TNA link is http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7379735

R

[christanel]

Hello Alan
You can apply for your grandfather's WW11 service record from the MOD. This sticky (http://www.british-genealogy.com/threads/81920-Finding-service-records-for-WW2-and-after?p=585757#post585757)gives information and links. It will be rather a long wait though as so many are applying at the moment.

Thank you Robin for all the help you are giving to those with relatives who served in this Durham regiment.

Christina

[Robin McEwen-King]

Hello Alan
You can apply for your grandfather's WW11 service record from the MOD. This sticky (http://www.british-genealogy.com/threads/81920-Finding-service-records-for-WW2-and-after?p=585757#post585757)gives information and links. It will be rather a long wait though as so many are applying at the moment.

Thank you Robin for all the help you are giving to those with relatives who served in this Durham regiment.

Christina

Thanks Christina .... My father in law was with the 4th Durham from April 1939 until April 1946 and was the first Sec of the Old Comrades Association. His daughter Margaret and I are happy to carry on the OCA tradition although her father died some time ago and the last OCA Sec is gone too and also our last known living Old Comrade contact died earlier this year ....

So now it is up to us 'the next generation' to keep their spirit of comradeship going.

AND we do so much agree .... get the full service record file from the MOD ( in Glasgow) - we have plenty of documents for her father BUT the MOD Service Record still added significantly and was well worth the fee. Takes a while for it to arrive ... several months.

BTW would be delighted to find that there is still a 4th Durham man alive.....


Robin

ps We are in touch with both Jim WHETTON the nephew of the old Colonel Whetton who updated his uncle's history of the regiment and has made sure that it is available online see http://www.defencesurveyors.org.uk/Images/Historical/WWII/Z_Location_Survey_in_War.pdf

and also Max Magnelli-Climpson who wrote the definitive work on the WW2 Survey Regiments.

[Robin McEwen-King]

and also Max Magnelli-Climpson who wrote the definitive work on the WW2 Survey Regiments.

Lt Radford is indexed in Max's book

[Robin McEwen-King]

My Grandfather Robert Radford QM was in this regiment ..... my mother was born in BMH Cairo Eygpt Dec 1939 then the family was shipped back to England.

"Z Location" has an interesting quote about the time on the troopship approacing Aden when RQMS Radford as an experienced regular who had been there before was invited by the Colonel to give a talk on what to expect in Egypt ... his talk opened with "Pineapples" .... read the book to discover why the Colonel interrupted his talk.

He is also mentioned in Max's book (Larkhill's Wartime Locators) - when the regiment lost a whole battery in the fall of Tobruk in 1942 the Colonel wanted a core of officers and NCO's he knew well RQMS Radford was put through for field promotion to Lt Q.

Max's book is available as an ebook

[ChrissieA]

Hi, my uncle was Frederick Lazenby Irvine. He served in the 4th Durham in Egypt. I have a couple of photos if anyone would like to see them. I have one with several names on the back. Mich Rowe, Cecil Johnson, Ron Theodoreson, Peter Sh??will, Joe Southern and Bob Southern? Not the best hand writing so names may not be perfect.