How to find a death when you don't know which name

[Ladkyis]

This is my problem.
My Great grandmother, Elizabeth NATHAN, was an actress - stage name Bessie NATHAN. She married Charles John GUILFOYLE, an actor - stage name Charles GUILFOYLE-SEYMOUR.
During her life she called herself Elizabeth GUILFOYLE, Bessie GUILFOYLE, Bessie SEYMOUR, Elizabeth GUILFOYLE-SEYMOUR, Elizabeth NATHAN, Bessie NATHAN.

I want to try and find her death but have no idea where she was when she died, or what year she died, or what name she was using when she died.

I am told (Family legend) that she had a stall in Swindon Market and this must have been in the 1920s. I have no idea why she chose there but then I have no idea why she opened a fancy goods bazaar in Newport and then sold it. Her youngest daughter married an american sailor after WW1 and went to America and after that Bessie left Newport.

All suggestions of how to trace her without spending a fortune gratefully received.

Ann

[ET in the USA]

Ancestry BMD scans are still free, unless you count your own time, then all genealogy is very expensive :) so you could use your best guess as to date and name, and then when you have exhausted that one, go to the next best, etc.

My guess is that she wouldn't have been buried as Bessie but under her real name Elizabeth. It really depends on who the informant was and if they knew her real name. I have one where the husband must have either spaced out or believed she was born in 1913 (it was really 1893) and he also said her maiden name was Ovens which was her mother's second married name. His wife's maiden name was Lord, but then as her third husband, he never knew her as that.

[ET in the USA]

Dear Ann,

I guess the previous answer wasn't much help...duh...

I googled Elizabeth and Bessie Guilfoyle just for fun and saw your 2004 post and your unwanted certificate for a 1949 death.

I see now that the money issue was about unwanted certificates, not searching costs.

You say she lies about her age, but you must have a ballpark range to work with that you can compare to a death age.
The 1949 death cert. was for someone who died at age 74. Wouldn't this have made her 4 years old when she married in 1875 ? Surely no one would believe that lie, even from an actress :)

I think what I would do, if it were me, is to make a list of the very best guesses, based on name, age at death, Location of death related to where she lived last or where her children lived, and any other factors, then just spend more money. I don't see any way around it if you are pretty sure she died in England.

Have you looked at ancestry for immigration or passenger information? That might also show an age. What about US census, in case she was there when she wasn't in England and just happened to coincide with a census.

If you send her birth date range and where she was in 1901 I'll help you look if you need it. Just assign me a section of the GRO deaths to search.
I love a challenge and I'm sick of my own people. I'm trying to find a marriage between Annie Wood and Frederick Lord, either before or after, or never, the birth of their daughter in 1894. Have no idea how old Mr. Lord is, as I have never found them together, except on the birth certificate.

[Sherry]

This is my problem.
My Great grandmother, Elizabeth NATHAN, was an actress - stage name Bessie NATHAN. She married Charles John GUILFOYLE, an actor - stage name Charles GUILFOYLE-SEYMOUR.
During her life she called herself Elizabeth GUILFOYLE, Bessie GUILFOYLE, Bessie SEYMOUR, Elizabeth GUILFOYLE-SEYMOUR, Elizabeth NATHAN, Bessie NATHAN.

I want to try and find her death but have no idea where she was when she died, or what year she died, or what name she was using when she died.

I am told (Family legend) that she had a stall in Swindon Market and this must have been in the 1920s. I have no idea why she chose there but then I have no idea why she opened a fancy goods bazaar in Newport and then sold it. Her youngest daughter married an american sailor after WW1 and went to America and after that Bessie left Newport.

All suggestions of how to trace her without spending a fortune gratefully received.

Ann
I looked on The Jewish Chronicle Archives for GUILFOYLE and GUILFOYLE-SEYMOUR but there was nothing. SEYMOUR and NATHAN gave too many "hits" unless you can narrow the dates down at all for me?
Let me know.
Best wishes,
Sherry

[Ladkyis]

I have searched the GUILFOYLE deaths from 1934 to 1955 (when she would have been 99) and purchased all the Elizabeth Guilfoyle certificates. I was kind of hoping that she would have used her real married name so that the people who buried her - whoever they were - would have been able to leave me a clue but why should she change the habit of a lifetime? In 1901 she gave her age as 39 (a good age but a lie) and said she was born in Maderia, she was calling herself Bessie SEYMOUR on that one and her oldest daughter is called Maggie SEYMOUR and just to confuse the issue further there is no sign of the youngest daughter who would have been 5.

She has been so difficult to find anything about and every night I pass her photograph as I go to bed and her expression tells me that whatever it is she wants me to do I haven't done yet...

Thanks for the advice, I'll just have to bite the bullet and start forking out for SEYMOUR certificates.

Ann

[Ladkyis]

I have found my Bessie NATHAN/GUILFOYLE/SEYMOUR in 1920 in Newport but not how I expected to find her. I found a marriage for a Bessie E Guilfoyle and thought it was the daughter of 'my' Bessie. I sent for the certificate and discover that it is MY Bessie getting married again! This is something that has never been said by the aunt who was the fount of all family knowledge.
She told us that after our grandmother (Bessie's daughter Margaret) died there was a terrible row between Bessie, who came to look after the children, and grandfather who she blamed for Margarets death. She said that the Doctors had warned him not to get her pregnant again because it would kill her but he did it anyway.
Grandfather was then said to have "Thrown her out into the street, bag and baggage!" She went to live across the street so that she could keep an eye on the children and make sure the new housekeeper looked after them.
Grandfather married the housekeeper and now I have found that Bessie was living next door to him until she married a man that lived across the street.
I am just so excited and I can't wait to get the next edition of the family newsletter finished so everyone can see the latest discovery.

This, of course tells me why I couldn't find her death under any of the expected names - she was WALTERS because of the new marriage - at least I hope so LOL

[MythicalMarian]

She has been so difficult to find anything about and every night I pass her photograph as I go to bed and her expression tells me that whatever it is she wants me to do I haven't done yet...

Ann

Oh - I'm so glad someone else has a naughty ancestor whose photo wears that secret Mona Lisa smile! I have a chap who teases me from my wall, saying...'Yes, you know I'm yours, but you're still not finding me properly...!'

They're a naughty lot, aren't they? Any mediums on the Forum? :)

ETA: Just seen your last post, Ann - well done! I'm thrilled for you.

[Sue Mackay]

|woohoo| I bet you have not even considered your sore feet as you dance round the kitchen!

[Ladkyis]

I searched for and found a Bessie E Walters who died in 1930 in London. It 'felt' right so I sent for the certificate and it arrived today.

I have her! I am just so pleased. The thing is that the person who registered the death gave Bessie's name as Bessie Elizabeth Seymour ( I told you she had lots of aliases) and she died in Lambeth Hospital of breast cancer, age 75. The death was registered by J Daer, niece.
Now I don't know how you read these certificates but when I get one I start at the top and read every single word, all the printed stuff, everything. Then I start at the number then move across the columns and decipher everything as I go. SO (the underlining is as the certificate)
twenty-sixth January 1930 Lambeth Hospital.
Bessie Elizabeth Seymour
female
75
of 13 Penn Road Holloway London N Widow of Guilfoyle Seymour Actor
1a secondary deposits B Carcinoma Mammal PM certified by W.M Targett MRCS
J. Daer niece in attendance 14 Hotspur Street Kennington Road
twenty-second January 1930
E W Short
In no 17 col 2 for 'Bessie Elizabeth Seymour' read Bessie Elizabeth Walters otherwise Seymour Col 4 for 75 years read 74 years and in col 5 for 'Widow of Guilfoyle Seymour Actor' read wife or widow of David Walters Plasterer (journeyman) corrected on the 11th February 1930 by Mr E W Short registrar on the production of a Statutory Declaration made by Alfred Samuel Bishop and Josie Daer

Happy Dance? oh yes! Alfred Bishop is married to Sarah Nathan, Bessie's sister. I have not searched for any children for them but it seems there was at least one daughter and her name is Josie - back to the census for more information.
Anyway, I find it strangely comforting that she was back amongst those of her siblings that remained in this country. That there was someone with her when she died is good. I think she was naughty to have left her grandchildren and not kept a contact but I don't know if Grancha or his second wife intervened to prevent her messages getting through I suspect that is what happened but...
I am just plain thrilled to have traced her from cradle to ............. I wonder where she is buried, How the heck do I find that? would she have been buried with Jewish rites as she was born or would it be the Catholic church as she brought up her children?
Aaaaarrrrgggghhhh Bessie!

[Jan1954]

|jumphappy for you Ann |hug|


Where buried? Perhaps there would be something in a local newspaper stating where the funeral was likely to take place.......

Just a thought, as I have discovered the burials of some of mine that way. My great grandmother, for instance died in Cambridge but was buried in Ashdon, Essex.

[Mutley]

Well done,

I believe Lambeth Hospital patients records are with the LMA.
(I think it was Camberwell District and maybe comes under the St. Thomas's Hospital Group, I also seem to remember St. Mary's was the local church)

There was a burial ground at Lambeth until 1958 and some went to Norwood.
Lambeth have an archives department.
Minet Library, 52 Knatchbull Road, London, SE5 9QY

might be worth a letter to see if they can point you in the right direction.

[Geoffers]

I believe Lambeth Hospital patients records are with the LMA.

Always worth remembering the Hospital Records Database, the entry for Lambeth Hospital (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/hospitalrecords/details.asp?id=75&hospital=lambeth&town=&searchdatabase.x=96&searchdatabase.y=12)shows the extent of records held by the LMA.

[Ladkyis]

Thanks everyone. I took a look at the link Geoffers and I have decided that I have selective dyslexia because I read every single word on the page and none of it made sense. I could actually feel my brain panicking in my head because everything was just scribble.
I will put the search for her burial onto my list of things to find and come back here to have another go at a later date.

[v.wells]

Fabulous luck and hard work Ladkyis |hug|I'm glad you found Bessie and some of the aliases :D