Pallot's Query

[busyglen]

Is there some kind person who could look up an entry in Pallots for me please?

I am trying to glean more information on Eliza Jones who was living in the Strand area (St. Martin in the Fields) in 1841. I have ascertained by means of one of her children's birth certificate, that her nee name was Bermingham. As she was married prior to the 1837 registrations, I realised that this was going to be a bit difficult to trace, but I decided to do a search on Ancestry Pallots, for a marriage between Eliza Bermingham and Edward Jones and an entry came up. As I don't have a subscription, I wondered if someone who has, or someone who has Pallots, could look up the information for me.

On the Ancestry Pallots, two entries came up. One showing Eliza BERMINGHAM and spouse Edwd. JONES, and a second entry showing Edwd. JONES and Eliza BERMINGHAM, which looks like the contra entry. These were the only ones, so I really think that I could have struck lucky with this. I don't know what information is given, but anything would be helpful.

I'm afraid I don't have any dates, but oldest child was 6 in 1841 (assuming that was correct).

Many thanks.

Glenys

[Mythology]

Hi Glenys

I reckon it's probably yours - Hackney 1830.

Ancesspit seems to be up the creek at the moment - I'm getting nowhere clicking the link on the CD for the online image, and even if I just try their normal web address the page won't load properly - so that's all I can tell you.
The chances are that, as he's not born Middlesex, this'll be Eliza's patch with luck, but they'll probably both be "of this parish" and, given the ages, probably both single, so I doubt if the actual slip will tell you any more.
I'll come back to it later though.

[Mythology]

OK - got it now.

As predicted, bachelor/spinster and no mention of being of any other parish.

HEAVILY EDITED IN VIEW OF FURTHER INVESTIGATION
Given the proximity of Hackney and Shoreditch, and the improbability of somebody else with the none too common name of Eliza Bermingham marrying an Edward Jones in that neck of the woods, as Eliza is only 27 on the 1841, I thought that Elizabeth Bermingham on the IGI, born 3 May 1815, baptised 27 August 1817 at St Leonard Shoreditch, dau of George & Margaret, could be your girl marrying young, the age is only a year out.

HOWEVER
1. From the other "George & Margaret" kids, they appear to be still in Shoreditch in 1830.
2. Pallot's has Elizabeth Bermingham marrying James Green 1833 Shoreditch, which seems very reasonable for Elizabeth of 1815.
3. I see that your Eliza, who claims to be only 27 in 1841, is allegedly 40 in 1851 and 50 in 1861 so, despite having real ages on that 1841 entry instead of rounded down ones, this lot are just as clueless as usual.

So - I think we can forget that idea!

[busyglen]

Thanks for your digging Myth, much appreciated. :) I must say that I didn't expect to get much info, but kept my fingers crossed.

I also had looked on IGI for Eliza(beth) Bermingham, and found a few, but none seemed to marry up (forgive the pun!). I couldn't believe my luck when I tried the Pallots on Ancestry, but I should have known that there wouldn't have been that much info.

According to other Census records, Edward Jones was born in Denbighshire, Wales. (Wouldn't you know it with a name like Jones!!). I did find an entry in IGI a while back, which `could' be a possible, but there is no way of checking this out at the moment, unless I can get his father's name. That is why I was pinning my hopes on the Pallots, for both Eliza and Edward. I'll have to try and see what records for Hackney are around.

Thanks again.

Glenys

[Mythology]

"I'll have to try and see what records for Hackney are around."

It probably won't add anything to your knowledge except for the exact date and the names of two witnesses, but I can get you a copy of the marriage record easily enough.
Registers are at the LMA (catalogued as SAINT JOHN AT HACKNEY, HACKNEY, LOWER CLAPTON ROAD, HACKNEY) and there's a nice little handwritten index at the start of the marriage register which gives the entry number, so you can go straight to it instead of having to plough through the whole year, a less than five minute job. :)

Not sure when I'm going next (it was supposed to be today, but I haven't recovered properly from a really bad Sunday night when I was up at about 3 a.m. being violently sick) but hopefully either Thursday or next week on Tuesday, so not too long - I've tacked it on to my list.

[busyglen]

Myth, that is most generous of you! If you have the time, that would be great, but please don't put yourself out. There is no rush.....they aren't going anywhere are they? ;)

I'm sorry you have been poorly....there appears to have been a bug going around here also, but luckily we were in Wales so missed it...must be the weather!! Hope you feel better soon.

I've had a fun morning trawling again for Jones in Denbighshire on IGI. I came up with several possibles, but without anything to check it against, it is only conjecture.

I found an Edward Jones born 1803 Ruabon, Denbigh with parents Thomas and Elizabeth. Now Edward named his son Thomas, who carried on the trade as Scalemaker, so I got quite excited at this. The fact that the mother was Elizabeth, also sounded good, as Eliza called their first daughter, Eliza, presumably after herself, and later along came Elizabeth (my gt. grandmother), who could have been named after Edward's mother.

I've also been trying to piece in an Ann Jones, who was a witness at Elizabeth and Alfred Strong Jarvis's wedding. Might have been a sister of Edward.

Sorry, I am rambling, but sometimes it helps to put down your thoughts, if only to discount them afterwards.

Hope you feel better soon. :)

Glenys

[busyglen]

*Afterthought*. I printed off the same Elizabeth Bermingham daur. of George & Margaret that you did a couple of days ago, as a `possible'. Glad that you were able to discount it for me! :)

Glenys

[Mythology]

Well, I thought I'd finished with this thread until I go to the LMA, but ...

"Hope you feel better soon."

Thank you, Glenys - I am now feeling 100%, so Tuesday is on.
But why was I, who have a reputation for having a cast iron stomach, ill in the first place? A stomach upset is almost a complete unknown to me!

I think I have the answer:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5112470.stm

I stick mostly to "real" food, but on Sunday afternoon, unaware of this story, I had picked up a Cadbury's Caramel bar - one of the seven items on the list - in the corner shop as a little treat for myself.

They can say what they like about the recall being "purely precautionary and that the risk is low" - it's just too much of a coincidence.

Accidents can happen in any business, and I'm not one to rant and rave about the odd unfortunate incident, but as they evidently knew about this back in January and chose to do nothing then, I regard their attitude as highly irresponsible and that is the last time I shall ever buy any Cadbury's product!

[busyglen]

Myth, you are not going to believe this but I assure you it's true......when I heard about this on the news, I thought about you and wondered if you ate chocolate! As I mentioned several people had been ill here also, but I just put it down to a normal (if there is such a one) stomach bug!

I'm glad that I don't eat chocolate.....well very very rarely!

Glad that you are feeling much better now....I noticed you were back on form in the forum (??) so guessed you had recovered.

Look forward to the news after Tuesday, but don't lose any of your precious time over it.

Glenys

[Mythology]

Well, I don't think you're going to learn anything from this one, I'm afraid, Glenys. I'll stick the copy in the post when I go out next, didn't have brains to take a pre-addressed envelope with me today and post it straight to you up town, but ...

It's 8 August 1830, by banns.
They are bachelor/spinster, both allegedly "of this Parish".
Edward's sig is the usual "Oh, this is a pen is it? Which end do I hold?" scrawl, but Eliza's is *incredibly* well written - I can't remember when I last saw such a neat signature from a woman in the early 1800s.
The two witnesses are ...
Wm Jackson - he is on loads of them, I expect he's the parish clerk.
Richard Pearce - and he got married to Eliza Baker the same day, it's the next entry, so that's why he's there!

Incidentally, when the copy arrives, you might at first sight think that the clerk has written Eliza's surname as "Birmingham" rather than "Bermingham". In isolation, yes, it does look a bit like that - but look at the rest. It's that old-fashioned e which is rather like a reversed 3, he just hasn't wobbled as much in the middle on this one as in most of them.

[busyglen]

Morning Myth, hope you had a better night?

Thank you so much for this...even if it doesn't tell me much, it confirms the marriage date, which is better than nothing.

I'm pleased to note that Eliza had such a good hand....wish I could say the same about mine!! |shakehead

I went through the IGI birth/christening records again yesterday and came across an Eliza Burmingham, christened 1813 St. Andrew, Enfield, which looks possible and I had hoped that one of the witnesses at the wedding, might be a parent. But, it wasn't to be and I wasn't really holding out any hope anyway so not too disappointed.

I'm going to have to show my ignorance (again) here. Where do Pallots entries come from? Were they collected from Parish records? If so, I wonder why they didn't record the fathers names, or didn't they start to do this until later? My John Jarvis married in 1842 and the fathers names were mentioned then. Oh well....just another problem to add to the rest....but....all good fun! I think!

Thanks again Myth, I really appreciate your efforts. :)

Glenys

[Mythology]

"Where do Pallots entries come from? Were they collected from Parish records? If so, I wonder why they didn't record the fathers names, or didn't they start to do this until later?"

Pallot's index was compiled from a number of sources - mostly parish registers, but also existing transcripts and marriage announcements in the Gentleman's Magazine. It was not really intended for family historians - they were a firm of solicitors who did it for establishing inheritance claims and so-on.

As far as the father's name is concerned, about the only time you're likely to see the father's name in a pre-July 1837 marriage register is if the person was a minor and the "by consent of " bit has been filled in. It very often isn't - my 3x great-grandmother's, in the City, is like your Hackney one, she's born 5 January 1816, married 14 April 1835, well short of 21, but is just "spinster" in the register, not "minor", with no note of parental consent. You're more likely to see it where it's by licence, as there was a bit in the 1753 Act that said that if they didn't get consent for a marriage which was by licence, it wasn't valid. Even there though, it may not say anything - the clergy were a law unto themselves and did their own thing with their own register. One fellow in Purleigh, Essex, went to the other extreme for a while and filled in the "by consent" bit for everybody, so you find a couple of widowed antiques getting married "by consent of their friends" and such nonsense!

[Peter Goodey]

"Where do Pallots entries come from? Were they collected from Parish records? If so, I wonder why they didn't record the fathers names, or didn't they start to do this until later? "

There was no provision in the standard preprinted marriage register for fathers' names to be shown at that time.

You probably stand more chance of finding a father's name in an earlier freeform style register but even then it was pretty rare.

[Mythology]

"came across an Eliza Burmingham, christened 1813 St. Andrew, Enfield"

Enfield to Hackney's logical enough for someone making their way up to the smoke. I would draw your attention to the entry that Tom found as a result of your 1871 look-up request, where we have a Maria who is evidently neé Jones, who could be your Maria, with her mother, Eliza allegedly being born "Surrey Enfield" - somebody doesn't know their counties!

I'd try and find Maria's marriage, see if the father's a suitable Edward and who the witnesses are. If you can establish that it's *your* Maria, then, in so far as anything pre-1837 based on vague parish registers can be said to be certain, Eliza of Enfield's a cert, isn't she?

[busyglen]

Have just seen this post Myth, and I have been doing just what you suggest. After reading Tom's reply, I got quite excited and started looking for a possible marriage.

I have just found such a marriage, Mar.qtr 1871, St. Olaves for a Maria Jones and a David Stodart, ( think that's what it is) which looks quite promising. I shall have a bash at sending for the cert. with fingers crossed.

The Enfield bit really sounds promising as I have found a christening of an Eliza Burmingham 1813 in Saint Andrew, Enfield, which would tie in with the Enfield mentioned in the entry Tom found for me.

I can't believe that this *may* all be coming together at last. It's taken years of trawling, and without the help of others, I would never have got this far.

Thanks. ;)

Glenys

[busyglen]

"Where do Pallots entries come from? Were they collected from Parish records? If so, I wonder why they didn't record the fathers names, or didn't they start to do this until later? "

There was no provision in the standard preprinted marriage register for fathers' names to be shown at that time.

You probably stand more chance of finding a father's name in an earlier freeform style register but even then it was pretty rare.

Thank you Peter, that makes things a bit clearer. ;)

Glenys