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Docwras
03-10-2004, 12:47 PM
I have a note that Roger Dokwra, who was vicar of Burton-in-Kendal, Westmorland, from 1409 until his death in 1437, "received a license on 4 April 1419 to absent himself from the Church of Burton-in-Kendal". Why would he require a license to do this and for what sort of reasons would such an absence be authorised?

Andrew Sellon
03-10-2004, 2:52 PM
Anne -

We are speaking of pre-reformation here and I was not, I must confess, aware that parishes had rectors.

Certainly Anglican incumbents in the C19th could only be away from their parishes for a set numer of weeks per year without having special permission (a licence?) from their Bishop. This probably still applies.

Possibly the same held good under the earlier Catholic regime.

Lesley Robertson
04-10-2004, 12:29 PM
Admittedly it's the Church of Scotland I'm talking about, but I have an entry in the Presbytry records where the in-coming Minister of Whitsome (earlyish 19th century) gained similar permission because the Manse was in such bad condition. As far as I can see, he turned up occiasionally to administer Communion, but otherwise stayed away until the rebuilding was over (they even did up the pig sty!).

Docwras
05-10-2004, 12:41 AM
Anne -

We are speaking of pre-reformation here and I was not, I must confess, aware that parishes had rectors.

Certainly Anglican incumbents in the C19th could only be away from their parishes for a set numer of weeks per year without having special permission (a licence?) from their Bishop. This probably still applies.

Possibly the same held good under the earlier Catholic regime.

Most of my brickwalls are pre-Reformation Andrew. Thanks for the info re C19th incumbents - I wonder how far back that rule does actually go?

I'm not really familiar with the distinction between Rectors, Vicars, Parsons, Curates, etc... so would appreciate a simple explanation if anyone can provide one please.

My source for the above actually refers to Roger as parson of the church of Burton-in-Kendal. He was "ratified to the estate .. as parson" in 1409. In 1412 he "received a dispensation .. to hold for 10 years one other benefice" - so far I've not found which benefice this may have been or if, in fact he did hold another, or had applied just in case.

Docwras
05-10-2004, 12:46 AM
Admittedly it's the Church of Scotland I'm talking about, but I have an entry in the Presbytry records where the in-coming Minister of Whitsome (earlyish 19th century) gained similar permission because the Manse was in such bad condition. As far as I can see, he turned up occiasionally to administer Communion, but otherwise stayed away until the rebuilding was over (they even did up the pig sty!).

That's understandable I suppose Lesley (not sure about the pig sty though!). I have no idea where the parson of Burton would have lived in 1409 as nothing of the village then remains now other than the church itself. Did parsons at that time have parsonages? or did they live in their own property?

Is there a good history of the early church that may throw some light on how early parsons lived - there were several Docwras who were churchmen around this time, so it would be interesting to know some more background. Suggestions as to where to look for this sort of info would be most welcome, thanks!

Andrew Sellon
12-10-2004, 9:58 AM
Anne -

A note I made for myself concerning one of my ancestors:

"The office of Perpetual Curate is that of an incumbent who does not own any of the tithes. A Vicar is he who holds only a portion of the tithes, such as the small tithes; and a Rector is he who owns the whole of the tithes including the great tithes. Great tithes were those derived from corn, grain, hay and wood; the small tithes were those derived from fruit, poultry, milk, etc.)"

The word 'curate' has a number of closely allied meanings, Here is what the OED says of it:
Curate. Also 4*8 curat, 4*5 curet(t, 6 currat, curatte.
[ad. med.L. curatus, in It. curato, F. curé (13th c. in Littré). The med.L. and It. are originally adjs. ‘of, belonging to, or having a cure or charge’, whence as n. ‘one who has a cure or ecclesiastical charge’.]

1. One entrusted with the cure of souls; a spiritual pastor.
† a. gen. Any ecclesiastic (including a bishop, etc.) who has the spiritual charge of a body of laymen.
† b. A clergyman who has the spiritual charge of a parish (or parochial district); the parson of a parish.
(Now only as an archaism or etymological use.)
c. Sc. Hist. Applied to the episcopal incumbents of the Scottish parishes from 1662 to 1688.
d. Applied to parish-priests abroad; a French cumessage=Anne -

2. a. A clergyman engaged for a stipend or salary, and licensed by the bishop of the diocese to perform ministerial duties in the parish as a deputy or assistant of the incumbent; an assistant to a parish priest.
This use of the word is peculiar to the Church of England and to the R.C. Church in Ireland, where assistants to the parish priests are also so called. It appears to have originated in the application of the name curate to the clergyman in actual charge of a parish of which the benefice was held by a non-resident clergyman, the head of a college, etc., and to have been thence extended to the deputy of an aged and infirm incumbent, and so gradually to any deputy or assistant of the beneficed clergyman, more fully described as a stipendiary or assistant curate. This is now the ordinary popular application of curate. A clergyman appointed by the bishop to take charge of a parish or chapelry during the incapacity or suspension of the incumbent is called a curate-in-charge. The incumbent of the chapel or church of an ecclesiastical district, forming part of an ancient parish, appointed by the patron and licensed by the bishop is a perpetual curate; these now rank as vicars.
b. curate’s egg: taken as a type of something of mixed character (good and bad).
Originating in a story of a meek curate who, having been given a stale egg byré, Italian curato, Spanish cura, etc.

† 3. One who has a charge; a curator, overseer. Obs.

4. attrib. (in quot. fig.)

5. a. jocular. A small poker (see quot.).
b. A cake-stand with two or more tiers. Also called curate’s comfort, delight, friend.
6. In Ireland, a spirit-grocer’s assistant.

Hence (chiefly nonce-wds.)
'curatess, the wife of a curate.
cu'ratial a., having the position of a curate.
cu'ratic, -ical a., of or pertaining to a curate.
'curatize v., to act as a curate.
'curato"cult, cura'tolatry, worship of a curate or curates.

Andrew Sellon
12-10-2004, 10:04 AM
Anne -

No doubt the pigsty was very important. Most rural incumbents livings included glebe land, which the incumbent would either farm himself to increase his (very low) income, or else he would let it.

Docwras
12-10-2004, 2:26 PM
Andrew, thank you very much for your explanation of the differences between the different clergy members, it's very helpful and will help me understand what various of the Docwras did in terms of their parishes.

Now to find which 2nd benefice Roger Dokwra held... if any! ;)