St. Philip Birmingham

[Betty Willson]

I have discovered that my gr.gr.grandmother was born in Birmingham. Her name was Mary Walthew. I though I had found her baptised at St. Martin's Birmingham in 1795 but after finding many other "ancestors" related to this Mary Walthew on tapes of St. Martins Church, I find I am on the wrong track. I have the wrong family. It has been suggested to me that my Mary Walthew might have been baptised at St. Philip's Birmingham. I was then told that St. Philip's was destroyed during the 2nd World War. Does anyone know please, if this is so? Are there any surviving records? The date of 1795 sounds about right to me. Thanks for any help. I don't know where to go from here. Betty Willson

[Colin Moretti]

Hello Betty

The LDS certainly have films for that period, this from their online catalogue:
(http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=localitysearch&columns=*,0,0)

Index to baptisms 1785-1794, Index to baptisms 1795-1818 FHL BRITISH Film 813715

They also seem to be in the IGI, check here:
http://
freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers/CountryEngland.htm#PageTitle

Good luck

Colin

[jeeb]

Hi Betty,
St Philips Birmingham is covered by the IGI but there does not appear to be Walthews there between 1750 & 1812, this is a rough estimate of dates only but there is certainly no Mary Walthew on the IGI in St Philips between 1739 & 1813.
Jeremy

[Betty Willson]

Thanks Colin Moretti & jeeb, I have ordered a couple of tapes of Bishop's Transcripts from St. Philip's from the LDS centre near to where I live. There is no Mary Walthew on the IGI that I can find that fits the bill apart from Mary Ann Walthew christened 23 Oct. 1795 at St. Martin's and this one is not my gr. gr. grandmother. I got the information off the 1851 census that my Mary Walthew was born in Birmingham. Her married name was Nelhams. She was married at St. Mary-le-bone in 1826 and lived at Red Lion Street Richmond, Surrey from then on. I cannot find a death cert. for her either. She died, I believe sometime, between 1851 and 1861. Thank you for your help. Do you know if St. Philip's was destroyed during a war? Betty Willson

[jeeb]

Hi Betty,
St Philips is the 18th century Cathedral church of Birmingham. It still stands today and is used for regular worship. It is located close to the centre of Birmingham.
There is also a R. C. Church, St. Philips, in Smethwick which still stands today. I have no knowledge of any church named St. Philips in Birmingham being destroyed but someone else may know otherwise.
Cheers, Jeremy.

[jeeb]

Hi Betty,
I looked quickly to see it I could find a death registered for Mary. I found her husband (I assume) Robert in Richmond Surrey but was unable like you to find Mary there between 1851-1861. There is however Mary Nelham registered dead in Marylebone April/May/June 1852. Page215 vol 1a234 of civil registration death index. It may be worth considering.
Jeremy.

[Betty Willson]

Thanks very much jeeb for your trouble. If the Mary Nelham (?) who died Marylebone in 1852 is indeed my g.g.grandmother, a lot of my questions would be answered and much about the movements of my g. grandmother (Mary's daughter) would be explained. Yes, the Robert Nelhams (my g.g.grandfather) who died Richmond Surrey 1857 was the husband of Mary Walthew. I have a copy of his death certificate. I can't thank you enough for the information. How did you find it? I seem to search in the wrong places. Best wishes, Betty Willson

[Betty Willson]

jeeb, I forgot to say that I am also grateful for the information about the churches in Birmingham. The lady who told me about the destruction of St. Philip's was just trying to be helpful and maybe I misunderstood which church she meant. I've never been outside of Australia. Thanks again, Betty

[Betty Willson]

I have been searching through the Bishop's Transcripts for St. Philip's and the only Walthew I have found so far is Timothy son of Timothy and Sarah Walthew baptised 2 Nov. 1795. The entries on the Transcripts are not in order of date so I haven't given up on my search for Mary Walthew, born about 1794/5 as yet. Re. the information given me by jeeb as to a death of a Mary Walthew 1852 at Marylebone - I've been trying to check it out before I send for a copy of the death cert. (I have already bought one incorrect one) and don't know where to look. It is not on on Free BMD. Should I just send for it and hope for the best. Mary was 58 in 1852. Betty Willson

[Betty Willson]

I'm sorry I meant to say Mary Nelham(s) nee Walthew on my last entry, in connection with a death cert. at Marylebone. Mary Walthew married Robert Nelhams 1826. Thanks again jeeb. Betty Willson

[Betty Willson]

I decided to send for the death cert. for Mary Nelham mentioned by Jeeb who died in 1852 at Marylebone. It hasn't arrived as yet. I tried but could not find out the age of this Mary Nelham. My Mary Nelham(s) would have been 58 in 1852 so I am keeping my fingers crossed. In the meantime I read about an Elizabeth Sarah Walthew bpt. at St. Lukes Finsbury, in 1834 (in a recent Practical Family History Magazine). This might be a daughter of my Mary's brother, for instance and wondered if I should chase up this family as the Birmingham connection seems to not be the correct family line. I wonder however, why my gr.gr.grandmother stated on the 1851 census that she was born at Birmingham? Does anyone have any ideas, please, where I might look for her baptism. I'll let you know Jeeb when the cert. arrives if it is the correct Mary. Thanks again. Betty Willson

[Betty Willson]

Jeeb, I thought you might be interested to know I have found a Mary Walthew baptised at St. Philip's in 1874 (This Mary Walthew, as far as I can see is not on the IGI) There are other entries for the Walthew family also on the Bishops Transcripts but they are very difficult to read and in some cases impossible. The death cert. for Mary Nellam has not arrived as yet. Best wishes, Betty Willson

[Betty Willson]

I'm stupid, I meant to say 1794 for the baptism of Mary Walthew. Betty

[Betty Willson]

Message to Jeeb, I received the death certificate for Mary Nelham today. I am not sure if it is my g.g.grandmother or not. It says that she was a housekeeper. I did not imagine that she would have gone out to work. She died in the Middlesex hospital Marylebone from "Carcinoma Mammo" Her age is about right. No mention of her family. Thanks for your help. Betty Willson

[looby42]

My ancestors were Darbys, many of whom were baptised in St Philips.
I'm going there next week to investigate further as I've come to a dead end. Do you normally have to book to see parish registers? There is a Darby crypt there so I need to establish if they are my Darbys. It's definitely the cathedral and is still standing. I'm very new to genealogy but am already addicted and would appreciate any advice

[jeeb]

Message to Jeeb, I received the death certificate for Mary Nelham today. I am not sure if it is my g.g.grandmother or not. It says that she was a housekeeper. I did not imagine that she would have gone out to work. She died in the Middlesex hospital Marylebone from "Carcinoma Mammo" Her age is about right. No mention of her family. Thanks for your help. Betty Willson
Hi Betty,
It would appear strange that Mary would be a housekeeper in 1852 in London after being with her husband in Surrey in 1851. However we do not know their personal circumstances and it may be possible she left him for various reasons, divorce was practically impossible for the majority then. I cannot find her alive in 1861 despite several extensive searches and the 1852 death is the only likely one between 1851-1861. I seem to recall you mentioned that Mary's death in London would explain other things about her daughter, am I correct in that assumption and if so what was it?
Interesting you have found a baptism in 1794 in St Philips, Birmingham, it would seem likely to be the correct one.
There is a James Nelhams born 1800 in Richmond/ Surrey on the 1861 census. Do you know about him, he is likely to be Robert's brother?
Cheers Jeremy.

[Betty Willson]

Thanks very much Jeremy for your interest, It was said by members of my father's family that my g.g. grandmother, who I assume to be Mary Nelhams (Walthew) was unable to look after her daughter (my g.grandmother). Noone seemed to know why. After starting this family history I thought this little facet of "gossip" might just be true because I found that my g. grandmother had two illegitimate children and was pregnant with a third when she married in August 1852. I cannot find her birth or the birth of her two younger siblings either, but judging by the census records it was about 1831/2. When I found the family on the 1841 census, everything seemed O.K. Yes! James Nelhams was my g.g.grandfather Robert's youngest brother. He was born 11 June and bpt. 30 June 1799. I cannot find a marriage for Edward and Martha Nelhams, my g.g g..grandparents but have the dates of their deaths. I believe there were nine children in the family. I found them all in the records for St. Mary Magdalen, Richmond. I appreciate any help you can give me. Thanks, Betty Willson

[Betty Willson]

Further to my other message - I wondered if Mary Nelhams (Walthew) might have worked as a live in Housekeeper and only managed to be at home at Red Lion Street once a week (i.e. including Census night). I've been trying to sort it all out for years! Robert Nelhams, Mary's husband, died in February 1857 from T.B. Perhaps he was ill for a number of years and was unable to work. It was said on his death cert. that he was a whitesmith and wireworker. I'm still going through the Bishop's Transcripts for St. Philip's Birmingham. I also found a death for a Mary Nelhams in 1796 but no mention of parents so am hoping it is not the burial of a 2 yr. old child or bang goes another lead. Thanks again, Betty

[jeeb]

Hi Betty,
Firstly who was your great grandmother who had the illegitamate children?

Can you check the burial for Mary Walthew in 1796 in the parish register, I'm assuming you found the death in the BTs, it may give extra information eg infant or wife of? Did it give the parents names for the 1794 baptism?

Who registered the deaths of Robert Nelhams in 1857 and Mary Nelham in 1852?

Jeremy

[jeeb]

Hi Betty,
Do you know who witnessed the marriage of Robert & Mary in 1826 and was a specific address given or did it just say of this parish?
Jeremy

[Betty Willson]

Thanks again Jeremy, I am hesitant to write the details again regarding my g. grandmother and the two children who were born before her marriage in 1852. The oldest child was my grandfather (my father's father). The family was very respectable and I know most of what there is to know about my g. grandparents and their eight children, after they left England for Australia in 1865. I did ramble on about this situation a few years ago and what I wrote was picked up and appeared on other websites. I felt rather awful about that. Yes! I found the death for Mary Walthew in 1796 on the National Buriel Index and then on The Bishop's Transcripts for St. Philip's. As I live in Australia, I only have the local LDS to depend on for records and there seems to be only B.T's for that period available for St. Philip's. There is no age or parents names mentioned with regards to the death so I am hoping it is not the death of a 2 year old child. There are fifteen Mary Walthews on the National Buriel Index between 1684 and 1825. Betty Willson

[Betty Willson]

Jeremy, regarding the death of Robert Nelhams in 1857 - A "Mary Isabella Birch" was the name of the informant on his death certificate. I traced Mary Isabella (out of curiosity) and came to the conclusion that she was just a neighbour. On the death certificate for Mary Nelham in 1852 - the name was L. Tisdall Middlesex Hospital Marylebone. I take it that L. (or it might be "S") Tisdal was on the staff of the hospital. The witnesses at the wedding of Robert Nelhams and Mary Walthew in 1826 were An Owens and Ann Parry and there was no specific address ( just "of the District-Rectory of St. Mary in the Parish of St. Mary-le-bone for both Robert and Mary). Thanks very much for trying to help me. Betty Willson

[jeeb]

Hi Betty,
I have tried to find out a little more to see if Mary Nelham who died in 1852 was Robert's wife. Firstly the L. Tidsall who witnessed the death was most likely Lucy Tidsall the head nurse at the hospital. What I am trying to establish is whether there was a connection with Marylebone, both Mary & Robert listed it as their abode when they married, that is correct isn't it? Did Mary know someone still there in 1852, we only have her connected with the hospital as a patient? Something I have wondered about was the fact she was described as a housekeeper on her death certificate, perhaps we have interpreted this wrongly and she was a 'housewife' & still the wife of Robert but due to her illness which would have made her ill for several months no doubt be the reason she was hospitalised in Marylebone. My knowledge of London hospitals is limited and I am not sure if this would be the nearest hospital to Richmond in the 1850's for cancer patients, possibly it was?
Like you suggested, there is not a lot to be gained from the informant of Robert's death either, she seems to just be a neighbour. Where were his children by then?
Sad how some people still react to illegitamate children born nearly 200 years ago. Personally I think this is a pity as our ancestors were only human and had to face very different problems in those days which only adds to the rich tapestry of their hard lives.
Jeremy.

[Betty Willson]

Thanks again Jeremy, I find it interesting that you know that the "L" of L Tidsall is for Lucy. Every bit of information counts. Yes I think that there were Walthews living around Marylebone but I do not know if they were connected with Mary (Walthew) Nelhams. According to the B.T's St Phillip's, the Mary Walthew born 1794 was the daughter of Thomas & Elisabeth. Elisabeth died 1801 so this Mary (who might be my g.g.grandmother) was left motherless at an early age and may have gone to live with relatives around the London area. I found a Henry & Louisa Walthew and children at Southwark 1851 census. Richard Walthew (born Staines) & Jane, his wife, a school mistress 1851 census. I can't make out the name of the district but I found it interesting that they were involved with a school. My great grandmother, Fanny, started a school soon after she arrived in Australia. It was taken over by the government of the day in 1869 and my g. grandmother (her married name was Stanbrough/i.e. my maiden name) was appointed provisional head mistress. Also there was a Walthew wedding at Trinity Church St. Mary-le-bone in 1831. Best Wishes Betty Willson