St Joseph's Industrial School for Girls

[lisawagner]

Hi to all,

I am trying, without success, to find information regarding my GGrandmother Alice Campbell, she married James Webster in 1911 and her father is named as William Campbell, Seaman, deceased. Her age has her born about 1885 and her death certificate confirms this. I have found an entry in the 1891 and 1901 census of an Alice Campbell, both St Joseph's Catholic Industrial School for Girls, Rusholme, Manchester, age 6 in the 1891 of Salford and 18 in the 1901 of Liverpool, and I am only assuming this is the same Alice in both. In the 1901 she is listed as a costume machinist, same as her marriage certificate. I know she had a sister known as Margaret who married Webb and the informant on her death certificate is her nephew Daniel Webb of Greenheys, Hulme but my Mum vaguely remembers Margaret may have been known as Mary, and there is a Man entry in the 1891 and 1901 census of an Alice Campbell, both St Joseph's Catholic Industrial School for Girls, Rusholme, Manchester, age 6 in the 1891 of Salford and 18 in the 1901 of Liverpool, and I am only assuming this is the same Alice in both. In the 1901 she is listed as a costume machinist, same as her marriage certificate. I know she had a sister known as Margaret who married Webb and the informant on her death certificate is her nephew Daniel Webb of Greenheys, Hulme but my Mum vaguely remembers Margaret may have been known as Mary, and there is a Mary Campbell listed on the 1891 census. I have searched for William in the 1881 but there are hundreds and none are seaman and there are numberous possibilities for her birth certificate. The only other information I know is that the family were devout Catholic so this would fit with the St Joseph's entry.

Now I have listed what I know is there anyone out there who could possibly steer me in the right direction. I have tried but can not seem to find any records for the Girls Industrial School, only the Boys in Ardwick. Maybe I am looking in the wrong place, so if anyone has any ideas, please let me know.

Thank you for taking the time to read this and any help would be appreciated.

Regards,
Lisa

[uksearch]

If any records survive for St Joseph's they will held by the Salford Dioceses. You can Google for their web site.

UK

[timetraveller]

Did you ever find the reords on st josephs orphan and industrial school?My grandmother was there on the 1901 censusaged 13, she had a sister at their shool in liverpool who she did not know about.I have been trying for so long to find anything...it was run partly by the sisters of charity st vincent de paul and most of the girls were trained to go into service.While they were at the school they did rudimentary lessons but mostly did laundry work.my grandmother who was born in 1887 remembered that the nuns were very strict and there was not much in the way of kindness shown to the girls.my grandmother was sent to france to work as a nursemaid when she was 15 .she did not have any happy memories of the school or the nuns

[timetraveller]

Ive also been tracking down records on st josephs industrial school.So far after the 1901 census list I have found nothing butnow know that the records for the girls school were held by the sisters of charity the ones with the big hats andwere held in Mill HILLinLondon,however I have been told that they have recently beendownsized and moved to a new address.The2009 Catholic Directory,which may be in your local library should have the address of the Archives of the sisters of st Vincent de Paul.All this information I have got from DavidLannon (AT) aol (DOT) com he isthe very helpful archivist at SalfordDiocese Hope this helps.......going to try his advice willlet you know.

[Procat]

Lisa has not been on the forum since 2006 so may not see your response Timetraveller..

[christanel]

Hello timetraveller.
Big coincidence here as I found this post on google whilst looking for info on St Joseph's Industrial school. (I spend a lot of time on here but have never seen Lisa's post but I am in the process of researching the same people as her for a 2nd cousin) - she does have a couple of pieces of info wrong. Margaret and Mary are separate people but are sisters. On Mary's marriage cert she gives her father as John Campbell so is he William or John?
I put that detail in in case Lisa gets to see this.
I would be very interested in anything you may find out about the records for this institution and will also pass on the email address to my rellie.
Thank you
Christina

[lisawagner]

Hello Christina,

it has been a while since I have been able to get back into my family history, I have recently picked up where I left off and yes, Mary and Margaret are sisters, along with Alice who is my GreatGrandmother. I have found them all in the 1911 census living at 81 Victoria Square, Ancoats which is also the address given on the marriage certificate of Alice to James Webster and later in 1922 they were living at 10 Victoria Square when my Grandmother was born. Mother to Mary, Alice and Margaret is Sarah Jane, the census has her aged 64 and from Liverpool and it states she has given birth to 10 children, only 3 living and Mary has a 3 year old daughter Sarah Jane Freda Campbell. Mary and Alice are listed as born Crumpsall Hospital and then overlapping Margaret and Sarah it has birth as Cheetham, Her Majestys Prison, Crumpsall. I may have found Sarah Jane in the 1891 living in Silk Street which isn't far from Victoria Square but other than that I am no further on. My mum has now remembered Mary or Margaret were known as 'Mutsy' but my mum can not be sure which one she remembers as it was back in the 40s/50s. You state Mary's marriage certificate shows her father as John, does it state his occupation as Seaman and a long shot but did Mary become Webb and then Fordy as this may explain the Webb connection with the nephew of Alice and I have the burial records and there is a Mary Fordy buried with Alice at St Josephs.

Kindest regards,
Lisa

[christanel]

Hello Lisa
I am busy trying to find all my notes on this family. I have quite a few even though they are not my line at all! Mary, sister of Alice and Margaret was with Charles Henry Fordy b1880 Manchester and James Webb. James and she married in the Sept quarter 1912. They had 3 children Henry 1912, Charles 1915 and Daniel 1919. Your Mum remembers correctly about the name "Mutsy" but I am going to have to look for it in my notes.
I will get back to you but I am afraid you are going to be disappointed as I have been looking for the parents of Mary Campbell for a couple of years now without success. However you never know.
I also have the 1911 census you give the details for.
Let me get my head around this and I will get back to you.

[lisawagner]

Thanks for that Christina, the burial information now makes sense, they are buried in St. Joseph's Catholic Cemetery, Moston, the plot is St Dunstan 1336 and the entries are

08/06/1963 Alice Webster, 78, 1 Hewitt Road, Collyhurst.
07/06/1965 Mary Fordy, 84, 97 Park Street, Greenheys.
09/11/1973 John Dwyer, 54, 21 Rodney Court, Miles Platting.

I have only recently had a breakthrough with this particular branch, Alice's daughter Margaret died in 1955 and my mum (Margaret's daughter) stayed in contact with Alice but it was difficult as Margaret's husband had fallen out with Alice. My mum remembers going and the house was empty, she knocked on a neighbours and was told Alice had died. I will post anything I find for you to pass on to your 2nd cousin.

Regards,
Lisa

[christanel]

Hi
found a few things. It is Mary who they called Mutsy.
Although her daughter Sarah was known as Sarah Webb and married Herbert Bootham under that name in 1934 we don't know who her father was. Probably not James Webb. Sarah Campbell/Webb was known to the family as Cissie. When she married Herbert Bootham she gave her father as James Henry Webb railway porter. The witnesses were Charles Webb and an Alice Ashcroft.
James Webb was 62 years old, a railway porter living at 153 Siddall Street off Rochdale Road Manchester, a widower, when he and Mary married. She gave the same address.
His father Charles Henry Webb, confectioner, deceased. Mary's father given as John Campbell seaman (mercantile) deceased. Witnesses Harry Kelly and **hanna (Johanna?) Flaherty
I have census records for Charles Henry and family. James Webb was born in Kent.
In 1881 I have a census entry for a Sarah Webb, age 39, widow, an inmate of the Salford Union workhouse, domestic servant born Liverpool. However it is too early for any children to be with her, but one to consider.
If she had three illegitimate children she may have done what my gggrandmother did and give them her deceased husbands surname.
I have many pieces of paper with birth, marriage and death records where i have been searching, unsuccesfully for the origins of Sarah Jane Campbell and John? Campbell. Also the births of the girls and Sarah Jane Fred Campbell. That names appears nowhere other than the 1911 census.
There are many bibs and bobs on this family but maybe a pm/email is the way to go.

[lisawagner]

There is a Sarah Jane F C Higgins on the BMD index born 1907 Prestwich, wondered if this may be Sarah Jane Freda Campbell but as would not help with my research am reluctant to pay just out of curiosity. Seems these ladies had a thing for railwaymen, Alice married James Webster who worked for Lancashire & Yorkshire Railways. The reference to Sarah being at Silk Street is for 1901 and not 1891, I have found a Sarah and John Campbell in Liverpool in 1871 and John is a mariner, they have two children, John Richard born 1867 and Sarah born 1869 and there is a Sarah Crellin married John Campbell in Liverpool 1865 but this is all speculative at the moment. I am plodding on and will let you know if anything turns up.

[mavisr]

Hi to all,

I am trying, without success, to find information regarding my GGrandmother Alice Campbell, she married James Webster in 1911 and her father is named as William Campbell, Seaman, deceased. Her age has her born about 1885 and her death certificate confirms this. I have found an entry in the 1891 and 1901 census of an Alice Campbell, both St Joseph's Catholic Industrial School for Girls, Rusholme, Manchester, age 6 in the 1891 of Salford and 18 in the 1901 of Liverpool, and I am only assuming this is the same Alice in both. In the 1901 she is listed as a costume machinist, same as her marriage certificate. I know she had a sister known as Margaret who married Webb and the informant on her death certificate is her nephew Daniel Webb of Greenheys, Hulme but my Mum vaguely remembers Margaret may have been known as Mary, and there is a Man entry in the 1891 and 1901 census of an Alice Campbell, both St Joseph's Catholic Industrial School for Girls, Rusholme, Manchester, age 6 in the 1891 of Salford and 18 in the 1901 of Liverpool, and I am only assuming this is the same Alice in both. In the 1901 she is listed as a costume machinist, same as her marriage certificate. I know she had a sister known as Margaret who married Webb and the informant on her death certificate is her nephew Daniel Webb of Greenheys, Hulme but my Mum vaguely remembers Margaret may have been known as Mary, and there is a Mary Campbell listed on the 1891 census. I have searched for William in the 1881 but there are hundreds and none are seaman and there are numberous possibilities for her birth certificate. The only other information I know is that the family were devout Catholic so this would fit with the St Joseph's entry.

Now I have listed what I know is there anyone out there who could possibly steer me in the right direction. I have tried but can not seem to find any records for the Girls Industrial School, only the Boys in Ardwick. Maybe I am looking in the wrong place, so if anyone has any ideas, please let me know.

Thank you for taking the time to read this and any help would be appreciated.

Regards,
Lisa


How interesting this is as I have just started researching my great aunt who was at this school and going by the list of all the girls there she was there at same time . Sarah Wigmore was 17 and your relative was 18! I now want to know how old my aunt was when she went there as I know she had lost her parents at a very very early age. I also now need to trace the following number of years when she went to France as a governess and translator. She is listed as a learner aat St. Josephs so I magine that is where she learned to speak French. \hope you had success. Mavis

[almach]

How interesting this is as I have just started researching my great aunt who was at this school and going by the list of all the girls there she was there at same time . Sarah Wigmore was 17 and your relative was 18! I now want to know how old my aunt was when she went there as I know she had lost her parents at a very very early age. I also now need to trace the following number of years when she went to France as a governess and translator. She is listed as a learner aat St. Josephs so I magine that is where she learned to speak French. \hope you had success. Mavis

Hello Mavis and welcome to the British Genealogy Forums.

I cannot help you with how old Sarah was when she went to St Joseph's Industrial School or the years she spent in France. However, I would like to help with other research if I can.

My findings so far tell me Sarah had a sister Margaret Ann born 1880 and a brother Joseph born 1887. I found Sarah and Joseph's birth registrations on the GRO index which gives mother's maiden name unless mother wasn't married. You can search the GRO indexes for free but must first register. https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp It seems Sarah's mother was unmarried when the children were born as mother's maiden name is not entered on their records. I haven't found Margaret's record in the GRO index, perhaps the GRO have missed or she has been mistranscribed, I have however found her registration on FreeBMD.

FreeBMD: Births Mar 1880
Wigmore Margaret Ann Prestwich 8d 436

WIGMORE, SARAH -
GRO Reference: 1883 M Quarter in PRESTWICH Volume 08D Page 413

WIGMORE, JOSEPH -
GRO Reference: 1887 S Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 241

It appears their mother's name was Julia and her mother's name Bridget.

1881, RG11; Piece: 3998; Folio: 55; Page: 28;
Joseph Smith 27, Manchester
Julia Wigmore, 26, boarder, hawker, Manchester
Bridget Wigmore 76, boarder, hawker, Ireland
Margaret Wigmore, 1, boarder, Manchester

Note Julia and her daughter Margaret are boarders in Joseph Smith's house, I, therefore, think this must be them in 1891 all entered as Smith, after 1891 I lose Julia and her son Joseph. Margaret is on the 1911 census with her husband Reuben Gerlinski, as yet I've not found her in 1901.

1891, Manchester RG12; Piece: 3247; Folio: 113; Page: 9
All born Manchester, boarding with Joseph Gavin
Joseph Smith 35, warehouse porter
Julia Smith 34
Margaret Smith 11
Sarah Smith 8
Joseph Smith 3

Marriages Sep 1906, Chorlton 8c 1727
GERLINSKI Reuben/WIGMORE Margaret

Maybe you already have all the above information but in case not I thought it worth posting.

[almach]

Julia with her parents and siblings.

1861, RG 9; Piece: 2960; Folio: 29; Page: 18;
James Wigmore, porter general, Ireland
Bridget Wigmore 50, hawker, Ireland
Margaret Wigmore 15, hawker, Ireland
Robert Wigmore 10, rope maker, Manchester
Julia Wigmore 7, Manchester

[mavisr]

Hello Mavis and welcome to the British Genealogy Forums.

I cannot help you with how old Sarah was when she went to St Joseph's Industrial School or the years she spent in France. However, I would like to help with other research if I can.

My findings so far tell me Sarah had a sister Margaret Ann born 1880 and a brother Joseph born 1887. I found Sarah and Joseph's birth registrations on the GRO index which gives mother's maiden name unless mother wasn't married. You can search the GRO indexes for free but must first register. https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp It seems Sarah's mother was unmarried when the children were born as mother's maiden name is not entered on their records. I haven't found Margaret's record in the GRO index, perhaps the GRO have missed or she has been mistranscribed, I have however found her registration on FreeBMD.

FreeBMD: Births Mar 1880
Wigmore Margaret Ann Prestwich 8d 436

WIGMORE, SARAH -
GRO Reference: 1883 M Quarter in PRESTWICH Volume 08D Page 413

WIGMORE, JOSEPH -
GRO Reference: 1887 S Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 241

It appears their mother's name was Julia and her mother's name Bridget.

1881, RG11; Piece: 3998; Folio: 55; Page: 28;
Joseph Smith 27, Manchester
Julia Wigmore, 26, boarder, hawker, Manchester
Bridget Wigmore 76, boarder, hawker, Ireland
Margaret Wigmore, 1, boarder, Manchester

Note Julia and her daughter Margaret are boarders in Joseph Smith's house, I, therefore, think this must be them in 1891 all entered as Smith, after 1891 I lose Julia and her son Joseph. Margaret is on the 1911 census with her husband Reuben Gerlinski, as yet I've not found her in 1901.

1891, Manchester RG12; Piece: 3247; Folio: 113; Page: 9
All born Manchester, boarding with Joseph Gavin
Joseph Smith 35, warehouse porter
Julia Smith 34
Margaret Smith 11
Sarah Smith 8
Joseph Smith 3

Marriages Sep 1906, Chorlton 8c 1727
GERLINSKI Reuben/WIGMORE Margaret

Maybe you already have all the above information but in case not I thought it worth posting.


Many thanks for all this information. I do have most of it except I never knew Julia had had a son. Margaret Galinsky was my grandmother. I am having difficulty finding all the GRO etc references but have forwarded copy of your reply to my cousin in America which is how I found by accident when trying to trace my family, that a family tree had been done and I do have a contact in La Hulpa where Sarah lived who can help me with her history in France.

Many thanks once again

Mavis