Lee (Delisle) Family in WW1

[monkeynut]

Hi

Can anybody tell me if there is a way to discover the whereabouts of my ancestors during WW1.

I have been told that they went to Eastern Europe sometime between 1901 and 1909, (My GGfather (Arthur Arnold Lee) worked for the ICRC)

I understand that they returned to their roots in the West Midlands during the war where they were not made welcome, so they went to Ireland (Belfast I believe) returning to Hungary after the war.

Also if anyone can help me to discover when and by what route they actually left the UK originally.

When they left the UK there name was Lee, but my GGrandfather Arthur Lee changed his name to Arthur Lee-Delisle sometime before 1909 when my Grandfather Arnold Louis was born.

Any guidance will be much appreciated

Tony Lee-Delisle

[Paul London]

Hi

Can anybody tell me if there is a way to discover the whereabouts of my ancestors during WW1.

I have been told that they went to Eastern Europe sometime between 1901 and 1909, (My GGfather (Arthur Arnold Lee) worked for the ICRC)

I understand that they returned to their roots in the West Midlands during the war where they were not made welcome, so they went to Ireland (Belfast I believe) returning to Hungary after the war.

Also if anyone can help me to discover when and by what route they actually left the UK originally.

When they left the UK there name was Lee, but my GGrandfather Arthur Lee changed his name to Arthur Lee-Delisle sometime before 1909 when my Grandfather Arnold Louis was born.

Any guidance will be much appreciated

Tony Lee-Delisle

Hi Tony,
I just 'surfed in' and spotted the surname Lee Delisle - while I may not have the answers you seek I do believe we may have a common interest in the family of Arnold Louis Delisle. For the past 20 years I've been researching the lives of a number of (WWII) NZ escaped POW's. One man in particular (Roy Natusch) got into Hungary back in 1943 and worked as a defacto SOE agent with the Hungarian Bishop, the Rev Alexander Szent-Ivanyi. The Rev, during the German occupation of his country in March of 1944 was aslo instrumental is providing assistance and aid to a number of Brit nationals who found themselves trapped, among them was (and I believe I'm correct in assuming this fact) was your grandfather, Arnold Louis, his wife, their children Mary and son, Louis-John. There also seems to be another family with the same surname, i.e. Arthur Frances, his wife Paula and their two sons, Arthur and Edward. If any of the above facts seem to 'ring-a-bell' with you please feel free to contact me via my e-mail address - paullondon at actrix dot co dot nz

With kind regards

Paul

[Mutley]

Hello Paul and welcome to the forum :seeya:

monkeynut has not been around for a while but I hope he will receive notice of your reply and be able to respond.
Your new information seems to be quite interesting from his point of view, thank you for submitting it.

[monkeynut]

Hello Paul and welcome to the forum :seeya:

monkeynut has not been around for a while but I hope he will receive notice of your reply and be able to respond.
Your new information seems to be quite interesting from his point of view, thank you for submitting it.

Hi Paul

Many thanks for your post, you have indeed got the right family, thank you so much for posting, you have told me something I did not know, I will be in touch privately to progress this.

Cheers

Tony

[Darryl Thompson]

Toby,
I'm finding your message many years after you wrote it, but I'm hoping that you see this message.
I'm a Shaker historian in the United States. The Shakers were founded by Mother Ann Lee from Manchester, England. The "headquarters" of the Shaker movement was at their village of Mount Lebanon in the town of New Lebanon, New York. Many Shaker documents are on Western Reserve Historical Society microfilm. The Western Reserve Historical Society is in Cleveland, Ohio, but the microfilm of their Shaker documents can be found in many university libraries. At the University of New Hampshire where I earned two degrees in American history, I remember reading on WRHS microfilm some correspondence between an Arnold D'Lisle from England and Brother Alonzo Hollister, a Shaker from Mount Lebanon. I believe the correspondence was from the 1890's, although it could have been earlier than that. At any rate, Arnold D'Lisle eventually wrote Brother Alonzo that "Arnold D'Lisle" was a pen name and that his real name was Arthur Lee. He said that he was a descendant of one of Mother Ann's brothers--I think a brother named John, although I could be wrong about that. Arthur Lee seems to have been involved in pacifism, religion, social reform, etc. Mother Ann had come from very humble origins, but Arthur Lee said that the family had risen to prominence over the generations. Could this be the same Arthur Lee-D'Lisle that you are referring to and that was your great-great grandfather?
Darryl Thompson

[Lesley Robertson]

Welcome in, Darryl. Tony hasn’t been around since 2011, hopefully he’ll get our message that you have replied and return.
Even if he doesn’t, your message will stay on our system, and may help someone else - ancestral name changes can make research so complicated!

[Darryl Thompson]

Lesley,
Thank you so much for your reply! I so hope that he does get the message!!
Darryl Thompson

[monkeynut]

Hi Darryl
I read your message with great interest and I think that there is something to explore here.
I can confirm the Arthur wrote under the pen name of A L Delisle and his birth name was Arthur Lee. Later he added the Delisle to his family name and became Arthur Lee-Delisle and that name has remained with our family

I can definitely see some similarities in your description of my ancestor and want to explore further, especially the letter you mention would be of great interest

I have no knowledge of the family link to the shaker movement and would be ver interested to learn more. The founders name could be a coincidence but I am excited to find out if there is a link.

I will get back to you soon

Thanks for taking the time to write

Your

Tony Lee-Delisle

[Darryl Thompson]

Tony,
I guess I will post this. I had hesitated to put this online because the writer of the following piece seems to not be casting Arthur in the best light, but it is not really bad at all--just one writer's opinion. This appeared on page 74 in the Wednesday, July 10, 1907 (Vol. 62, No. 1593) issue of the British magazine "Truth":
"A gentleman going by the name of Arnold or Arthur de Lisle, and describing himself as a Fellow of the Royal Historical Society, has lately been calling upon people in Westminster in search of donations to a fund which he is getting up in behalf of a Miss Evans. I would strongly advise anyone who may be favoured with his visits to refrain from bestowing their gifts until they have discovered who Miss Evans may be, and what authority De Lisle has to collect on her behalf. The Charity Organisation Society, who recently received an inquiry on these points, were unable to trace the lady in question, or to get any satisfactory information about her from De Lisle. Further, although he seems to have been at one time a Fellow of the Royal Historical Society, he is no longer. I believe that his real name is Lee, and that he has been in the habit of making appeals for obscure objects."
Tony, if Arthur was at one time a Fellow of the Royal Historical Society, you should be able to get information about him from that organization!
Darryl

[Darryl Thompson]

Tony,
I just checked Google Books and there was a 74-page book published in 1904 by "The Offices of the Banner" and it was called "The Story of the Redbroos Movement" and the author was Arnold De Lisle! I don't know what the Redbroos Movement was.
Years ago in college, when I was trying to find out about the Arnold D'Lisle/Arthur Lee who wrote the letter to Brother Alonzo Hollister of the Mount Lebanon Shakers, I discovered that there was a mathematics book written by an Arnold D'Lisle (which is how he signed his last name when he wrote Brother Alonzo). I do not recall the title or publisher of that book.
Darryl

[Darryl Thompson]

Tony,
I found the letter tonight. Years ago I had printed it out from the microfilm and put it in a scrapbook. The letter is found on Reel 22 of the Western Reserve Historical Society Shaker Collection Microfilm, IV-A:46, FB. The genealogical connection to Mother Ann Lee of the Shakers is outlined by Arthur in the second to the last paragraph. To convey Arthur's style and emphasis, I have indicated in parentheses where he has underlined words or increased the size of the print to stress a point.
Here is the letter:
"Fair View," Netherton, Worc.,.
6th November 1902

A.G,. Hollister, Esq.
My Dear Sir,
I thank you for the instructive pamphlets you have so kindly sent to me, which I have read with real interest and sympathy. On the sex-union question, I am entirely with you. I have held your view, and practiced it, ever since my marriage (or rather, my wedding) ten years ago. My mother, (since dead) being a confined invalid, a mistress of my house was necessary, and on that account chiefly I was induced, when 25 years old, to wed a Christian lady of equal age. We have lived together in almost perfect harmony since our wedding day--never forgetting that we are "not as the beasts that perish," bur remembering that we have each a spiritual["spiritual" underlined] nature which must rule the physical ["physical" underlined], and take precedence in all things.
I can accept your teaching generally ["generally" underlined]; but with regard to Spiritualism I have personally had no experience and can therefore only say "I don't know." Certainly I have heard it roundly condemned as a "devilish doctrine," but for my own part I present an open mind on the subject.
Until the commencement of the War in South Africa, I was a member of the church of Christian Brethren, but I felt morally bound to sever my connection with them owing to their attitude on the War. Being a preacher ["preacher" underlined] among them, I desired to condemn ["condemn" underlined] it, as inconsistent with the teaching of Christ, and as an outrage on the "Christian profession" of this country, but I was not allowed to do so. Therefore I came out ["came out" underlined] from them, and have remained separate ["separate" underlined] ever since. Twelve months ago I felt overwhelmingly impressed ["overwhelmingly impressed" underlined] to found the League of Peace and publish "The Banner of Peace," which, from a pecuniary point of view, has been a considerable out-of-pocket loss. Next year, however, I hope to recoup myself from the renewed subscriptions which will no doubt flow in.
I send you a copy of my book "A Strong Delusion" ["A Strong Delusion"underlined]--but in doing so I should warn you that it does not altogether reflect my present views ["present views" underlined],--though in my condemnation of Priestcraft ["Priestcraft" underlined] my attitude remains entirely unchanged. Please, therefore, remember this when you read therein anything which meets with your disapprobation. Remember also that I am comparatively a young man [36] who is seeking the Truth, and not one who claims to have already attained it. One by one I have thrown overboard many of the 'beliefs' in which I have been brought up.
And now in conclusion I will tell you something that will be sure to interest you. Your prophetess, Ann Lee, when she sailed for America on the 19th May, 1774, left behind her a brother (Joseph)[name "Joseph" underlined], who had never identified himself with his sister's teaching and claims, and therefore perhaps has never been mentioned in your publications. This brother was my direct ancestor. [This last sentence is in large print and underlined]. During the past century the Lee family has progressed in a worldly sense, so that now some of us are well-to-do and hold positions of honour and influence in the Civil Service of the Government, and others in the Established Church.
In the hope, my dear Sir, that myself and the Shaker Community may become better acquainted in the not distant future,
Believe me,
Yours very faithfully,
Arthur Lee
(writing under the nom-de-plume of "Arnold de Lisle.")

[Note: This last phrase in parenthesis about the non-de-plume is written by Arthur in the text and is not a comment in parentheses added by me].

So, Tony, there it is. As I have re-read the letter, I realize that my memory was faulty on two points. First, I said that he had signed his letter to Brother Alonzo as "Arnold D'Lisle," but it turns out that he signed it "Arnold de Lisle"--small "d," no apostrophe. Secondly and more importantly, I had said that Arthur had said that he was descended from a brother of Ann's named John, but upon re-reading the letter I find that he says he is descended from a brother of hers named Joseph--Joseph Lee.
I'm very much looking forward to hearing your thoughts on all of this and I have more material to send to you.

[monkeynut]

Hi Darryl

Thankyou for posting the story from the magazine, I am not afraid of scandal as it puts some flesh on the bones of my tree. Having read this though, do you think it casts some doubt on his true intentions in contacting the Shakers?

The date of publication is of interest too as I have been trying to find when he and the family moved to Europe, Up to now I knew it was after 1901 and before 1909 (year of my Grandfather's birth in Budapest) This would appear to have him located in the UK in 1907. I wonder if he fled the UK because his actions were catching up on him, its an interesting thought.

I would love to find some evidence to support the link between my family and Mother Ann Lee, but I can only go back as far as late 1700s in Shropshire, I cannot find a link to Manchester so far.

I have written to the Royal Historical Society to find out if they hold membership records for this time, I would love to know if this story is true.

I think I omitted to mention that my ancestors full birth name was Arthur Arnold Lee, so this coincides with your findings as he could have used either name, particularly if he was trying to scam people :)

The book found, I think is a typo because I do know he wrote a book called the History of the Red Cross Movement, and a further search has confirmed of its existence. There was at one time a copy in the British Library but I would really like to get my hands on a copy. There is a copy in America here https://searchworks.stanford.edu/view/3920453. I also believe that at one time he worked for the ICRC (international committee of the Red Cross)in Switzerland before settling in Hungary

I also was told that he translated a Hungarian book called the "Art of Wrought Iron Gatework" but so far I have not been able to confirm this.

I have a copy of a book that he collaborated on which has been signed in his own hand, I am especially fond of this as it really speaks to me. This one is called "Austria of the Austrians and Hungary of the Hungarians". He wrote the Hungarian section and is a description of the country (a bit like the Lonely planet series of its day)

I also heard that he was a pacifist and a spiritualist, and there is a family story (non evidenced) that he corresponded with Sir Arthur Conan Doyle on the latter (in case you are unaware Conan Doyle wrote the Sherlock Holmes stories. I have tried to find evidence but so far without much luck.

I believe that it was his pacifist views that made him unpopular with this family (see original story at the top of this page) but I guess with what you have told me it could have been because he was a rogue and a crook :)

Do you have any links to the two stories you have shared - I would love to have copies of these to insert into my tree. My father would be fascinated

I will stop here for now

If you manage to find any more information please do share as my research time is limited due to full time work.

Thanks again

Kind Regards

Tony

[monkeynut]

Hi Darryl

This is brilliant stuff, I can't wait to share it with my family

I am now certain we have a match because in the 1901 UK Census he is living in Netherton, He was born in 1867 which would make him 36 in 1902

Thank you, Thank you :)

I really must get back to work now :(

Regards

Tony

[Lesley Robertson]

Have you checked the newspapers around the start of the 20th century? It sounds as though he might have attracted some attention. The British Newspaper Archive and Find My Past both have good collections.

[Darryl Thompson]

Lesley,
That is a wonderful idea and I'm sure Tony will try it. Historic newspapers have been a huge help to me in my own research!
Darryl

[monkeynut]

Hi Darryl and Lesley

Do either of you have access to the newspaperarchive.com? I did a free search for Arnold Delisle and found the following, but I do not have the funds to subscribe for what may be a dead end, and I feel that I may have difficulty cancelling after the free trial.

https://newspaperarchive.com/tags/?pci=7&pf=arnold&pl=delisle/

The teaser text reads...

Top search results for
“Arnold Delisle”
Hamilton Evening Sun
25 Nov 1903
Hamilton, Ohio

Arnold Delisle, founder of the league, who is said to be of family of the Earl of Dudley, is editor of the pal...

I am intrigued by this because if it is him then he is now saying that he is related to the Earl of Dudley, which does seem a bit far fetched, but the words "Arnold Delisle, founder of the league" tie in with the letter to the shakers where he states he is "founder of the league of peace"

He does have a link with Dudley, but only as a place of residence, Dudley is a town in the UK

In addition to this, the search turned up a few other results which I would like to explore too.

I would never have thought to search for Arnold Delisle as I knew him as Arthur.

Thanks Again

Tony

[Darryl Thompson]

Tony,
I don't have access to newspaper.archive.com, although I can go about trying to see if I can subscribe (which depends on the cost as I'm on a limited income). But I'm intrigued and will at least investigate this avenue. There might be an alternate way that I can also get that Hamilton Sun article.
There is another note from Arthur Lee to Brother Alonzo Hollister that I want to share with you. This was written prior to the other letter I sent to you, prior to his revealing to Brother Alonzo that "Arnold de Lisle" was Arthur Lee:
"October 23,1902
Dear Sir,
Princess Wiszniewska has asked me to send you a copy of the "Banner of Peace." In doing so I beg to ask you to allow me to enroll you as a member of the League of Peace [Note: "League of Peace" underlined here], which has done a most useful work during the recent war in South Africa.
May I say also that an article from your pen would be much appreciated by our readers.
Yours faithfully,
Arnold de Lisle
Netherton, Dudley, Worcestershire
23 x02"

Now I can tell you something about Princess Wiszniewska. She founded the "Alliance of Women for Peace," an international organization. Her first name was Adelaide. The Shakers of Mount Lebanon, New York, were involved with the organization. Eldress Anna White of the Mount Lebanon North Family (a "family" one of the governmental/social/ economic units within a particular Shaker Village was organized--basically a semi-independent neighborhood within the village)was particularly involved. Eldress Anna and Eldress Leila Taylor wrote a book called "Shakerism: Its Meaning and Message" that was published in 1905. On page 217 iy says: "Eldress Anna was also associated with the late Princess Wiszniewska, daughter of Victor Hugo, leader of the "Alliance of Women for Peace," whose centre is at Paris, France, and having obtained five thousand signatures to the Petition for International Disarmament, more than any one else in the State, she was appointed Vice President of the Alliance for the State of New York. The active work is constantly carried on at Mount Lebanon, and few women visitors are allowed to leave the North Family residence wihout the Petition being offered for their signature. Hundreds of names are thus secured."
This all relates to World War I, which was the original focus of this thread. Princess Wiszniewska and other pacifists saw an international arms race which they feared would end in a cataclysmic bloodbath. To prevent this from happening, Princess Wiszniewska and her group gathered thousands of signatures from various countries. The petition called upon the nations of the world to mutually agree to disarm. The organization stressed the value of international arbitration and backed the idea of a world court to settle international disputes, alternatives to settling conflict by war. Of course, World War I did come, which sadly shows how ineffective these efforts were. But, nevertheless, the peace movement has persisted all through these decades. Hopefully someday it will bear real fruit and we will have worldwide peace, but that goal still seems far, far in the future.
Now this brings me to some sources of additional information that you need to investigate. Swarthmore College is a Quaker college in the United States. Their library has a collection related to famous pacifists and the peace moveme4nt. I think that may be in the Special Collections Department. I know for ac fact that this collection contains one or more newspaper articles on Princess Wiszniewska. The collection may also contain information on Arthur Lee/Arnold de Lisle, although I am just guessing that.
Someone has told me that the Alliance of Women for Peace either evolved into or was eventually absorbed by a modern European organization for women that still exists. Swarthmore could help you find out what that organization is named and you could contact that organization and see what they have about both Arnold/Arthur and about his contacts with Princess Wiszniewska.
The above note written by Arthur mentions some kind of work done by the League of Peace in the Second Boer War. Could this be some kind of humanitarian work, some kind of humanitarian medical aid to the wounded? Finding a South African historian who could help you with this might yield further information.
In historical research sources lead to more sources. Doors open and lead to other doors. Contacts lead to more contacts. So follow the trail and see where it leads.
Tony, I hope that this information is helpful both to you and to other researchers. Please keep me posted about your progress.
Darryl

[Darryl Thompson]

P.S. to my most recent message.
Tony, I think the Mount Lebanon Shakers may have been mistaken about Princess Wiszniewska being the daughter of Victor Hugo, although I might be wrong about this. But somewhere I heard that her maiden name was Hagot, not Hugo.
By the way, how do you pronounce the "DeLisle" part of your surname? "Dee-Liz-Lee", "Day-Liz-Lay"? "Dee-Liz-el?" "Day-Leel"? Also, do you put a space between the "De" and the "Lisle" or is there no space?

[monkeynut]

Hi Darryl

This is a question I get a lot as you can imagine, and there have been many imaginative pronunciations over the years

We say it as follows - D'Lyle and there is no space. ( the D being short, not long as in Dee)

Its literal meaning is from the French De L'Isle (of or from the island)

As far as I can gather it is entirely made up by my ancestor and there is no family connection to any family with this name, which appears very regularly on internet searches in the US and Canada as well as France

Speak Soon

Tony

[Darryl Thompson]

Tony,
In one of Arthur's letters, that I sent to you, he mentions that he was at one time a preacher in the Church of the Brethren. It also occurs to me that you could contact the Church of the Brethren and see what information they have about Artur Lee/Arnold De Lisle.
Darryl

[Darryl Thompson]

Tony,
I think you got my "p.s." note but didn't see the long and most recent message that I sent before that. I sent you another letter from Arthur/Arnold.
Regardless of whether he was good or bad or both, Arthur was a fascinating character. Someday when you have enough information about him, I'd urge you to publish it all as an article. Maybe even a book, but at least an article.
Make sure to read the October 23, 1902 note from Arthur to Brother Alonzo that I most recently sent to you.
By the way, what does the "23 x 02" at the bottom of the note mean?
Darryl

[Darryl Thompson]

Tony,
I subscribed to Newspaperarchives.com to advance this research we are doing. While the cost hurt (I'm on a very limited income), I figured that I could use the subscription to turn up information for my own various historical research projects. You won't believe what I found. It should be noted that your great-great grandfather and his associate Green were trying to take Palestine by purchase rather than by war. Nevertheless, it is a bit perplexing to hear a pacifist talking about a "crusade" and "conquest of the Holy Land" and using a pacifist newspaper to push that. Here is the article:

The Hamilton Evening Sun (Hamilton, Ohio newspaper), Wednesday, November 25, 1903 (Vol. 2, No. 279), page 3:
"Pledge Millions for New Crusade
Redemption of Holy Land and Establishment
of the Republic of Palestine Promised by English and American Promoters

New York, Nov.25

Another step in the astonishing crusade for the conquest of Palestine, of which Arthur Smedley Green, a young Greenwich, Conn.[Connecticut] artist is the founder, is the addition of his name as associate editor of Banner of Peace, the organ of the League of Peace, in England. Arnold Delisle, founder of the league, who is said to be of family of the Earl of Dudley, is editor of the paper, and devoted the greater part of current issue to an appeal for the new crusade in which he says:
"The Republic of Palestine is more than a mere idea existing in the minds of writers and their colleagues. I have before me a lengthy list of the names of pledged supporters of the crusade, and they are men and women whose united wealth probably exceeds five hundred million pounds, some being of royal blood. On the head of at least one of them rests an imperial diadem.
A Holy Republic
This is the nearest approach yet made to a positive statement as to whom has been pledged to support the stupendous undertaking of the purchase and reclaiming of the Holy Land by Jews and Christians combined. The ultimate idea is to form a Republic of Jesus Christ.
Arthur S. Green has been in New York for several months preparing for the life work before him, and at present is visiting in Hempstead, L.I. [Long Island]. Progress of the movement has been slow because of his personal lack of funds and while much has been pledged to carry on the work, he has hesitated about asking for money in advance of the crusade assuming a concrete form."
So there it is.
Tony, please read the several messages I sent to you yesterday morning (April 26), particularly the lengthy first one about Arthur's association with Princess Wiszniewska. I really, really want to hear your thoughts about that second letter by Arthur and the associated facts.

[monkeynut]

Hi Darryl

Sorry I have not got back to you
Rest assured that I have read every post with interest and this latest one is taking a bit of time to digest
Thank you for subscribing to the newspaper archive
I am considering my options with the uk version so if this happens I will happily do lookups for you as you have so very kindly done for me
I will try and give it some time over the weekend and respond fully,

Thanks again

Tony

[Darryl Thompson]

Tony,
Don't worry about taking time to reply. I know this is a lot to digest. I'm trying to come to terms with that last discovered piece also. It's natural that the movements that Arthur was involved with would include a few characters and eccentrics. And--wow!--you and I have uncovered a couple of them! Arthur was a remarkable character himself, apparently, and his associate Green would seem to "take the cake," as we say here in the U.S.
It's the Memorial Day weekend here in the United States. I look forward to hearing from you whenever you have some time to write. May God bless you, my friend.
Darryl

[Darryl Thompson]

Tony,
Google "Arthur Smedley Green" and you will come up with a few articles that were published in his time about his plan to buy Palestine.
Darryl

[Darryl Thompson]

Tony,
I just found out something interesting. Go to Google Books and type in the browser "Sir Arnold Delisle."
In the 1600's Prince Rupert, Lord Admiral and the nephew of the executed King Charles I, sent a message to the King of Portugal and the bearer of the message was Sir Arnold Delisle. Do you think this had anything to do with your great-great grandfather choosing this as his pen name?
Darryl

[Darryl Thompson]

Lesley,
I wrote a note to Tony Lee-Delisle via this forum and sent it, but it was never posted. I then posted a second version of the same message and it also "disappeared." Then last night, June 14th, I wrote a third version of the message (which was the best version) and sent it, but it has also not been posted. I don't want three versions of the same message to show up here! Tony and others will think I'm daft!! If the June 14th (the third) version did transmit, please make sure that it is the only version posted.
Do you know why these three messages disappeared? Is there a way of retrieving them? I remember that on the third try I had clicked on "reply to thread" and then sent a "quick reply.'
Darryl Thompson

[monkeynut]

Hi Darryl
I am sorry I have not been in contact recently we have had a small family issue to deal with which has taken all my spare time. I have spent a little time looking up some of the book titles you uncovered and found a lot of them in various academic libraries across the globe. Hopefully I will be able some day to visit some these libraries and at least view them if not get transcripts. I did try and find out a bit about the league of peace and Arthur Smedley Greene with not a great deal of evidence to link them. I did find another Arnold Delisle in Canada though, which was fascinating. It unlikely to be the same person knowing what I do about the family. I have had no luck in linking mother Ann Lee with my ancestor, there is no trace of a brother called Joseph so far I will keep plodding on as time permits and I thank you for bringing this to my attention. It has renewed my enthusiasm but I doubt I will get to write a book about it.
I hope your missing post turns up. I don’t know if we can somehow communicate off forum.
Speak soon
Tony

[Darryl Thompson]

Tony,
I may just have found something major. There was a pacifist organization that was called the Universal Peace Union and that was founded in the United States by Alfred H. Love. There is a book written about it. The organization evidently became international. The Mount Lebanon North Family of Shakers in New York State were very involved with the organization for many years. The Universal Peace Union published a periodical called "The Peacemaker and Court of Arbitration." Volumes 23-24 of that publication can be found online at Google Books. Tonight I just found a list of officers of the organization for 1903-1904. There is a long list of vice-presidents as apparently every region that had a chapter of the organization was headed by a vice-president. Now here is the interesting part. Among the listed vice-presidents is "Arnold DeLisle, Netherton, Dudley, England." Furthermore, on page 142 of the same volume it tells about a gathering of the organization in Colorado." A "Mrs. Spray" displayed portraits of famous peace activists and members of the organization and gave a commentary about the portraits to the gathered assembly. One of the portraits exhibited was that of "Arnold DeLisle."
If you go to Wikipedia and look up "Arthur H. Love" and "Universal Peace Union," you will find that all of the Universal Peace Union's records are now at Swarthmore College, a Quaker college here in the United States. Remember, I had encouraged you to contact them.
It is interesting that Mrs. Spray's collection of portraits puts Arthur Lee/Arnold DeLisle (notice the capitalization of the "L" in the name) among some very famous people includeing Clara Barton and Edward Everett Hale, both noted people in American history.
I've found a way for us to communicate offline. My postal mailing address is already published online in connection to my Shaker work, so there is no harm contacting me by mail. My address is: Darryl Thompson, P.O. Box 42, Gilmanton Iron Works, New Hampshire, USA 03837
Darryl

[Darryl Thompson]

P.S. Tony, American Shakerism was founded by Mother Ann Lee, but British Shakerism was founded by James and Jane Wardley, a husband and wife who were tailors by trade and were (depending on who you talk to about this) either Quakers or people who had at least had attended Quaker meetings and imbibed Quaker principles. James and Jane had a celibate marriage and encouraged celibacy among their followers but did not require it as a condition of membership. Mother Ann was like a daughter to the Wardleys and they eventually conceded leadership of the group to her as they recognized she had "greater light." Mother Ann made celibacy a requirement for membership in the group. Now here is the point I'm making: Whereas Shakerism is usually associated with Manchester, it actually first began at Bolton-on-the-Moor (about 12 miles from Manchester) and then moved to Manchester when John Townley, a very well-to-do bricklayer whose wife had joined the group and used to travel to Bolton to attend meetings, invited the Wardleys to live in his house in Manchester. I know that you cannot connect your Shropshire ancestors with Manchester, but have you tried to connect them with Bolton?
The above is basically the gist of the message that I repeatedly sent to you but which never transmitted. I was encouraging you to see if you could find a tie between your family and Bolton.

[Lesley Robertson]

Hi Darryl,
I can’t see why your messages vanished - had it been by the deliberate action of Mods or Admin, it takes several steps to delete messages, and we usually discuss what and why in the Mod’s area of the Forum, as well as telling the author. The message is retained for a while and can be seen by Mods and Admin.
A total removal of a post requires an extra step, and is only used for spam and the like. If you had done anything to merit that, you would have been banned as well.

It sounds like a glitch of some sort. Did they vanish after they appeared after you hit send and they’d appeared on the forum, or before?
I’ll have another look after the on-coming thunderstorm has passed.

[Darryl Thompson]

Lesley,
Thank you for your extremely kind note. The postings "disappeared" in the sense that after I hit the "post quick reply" button, each was never posted. It must have been some kind of glitch. But it's O.K. I just sent Tony a note that did go through and it contained the essence of what I said in those messages that never transmitted.
Darryl

[Darryl Thompson]

Tony,
The following article appeared in the June 1904 (Vol. 23, No. 6) issue of "The Peacemaker," the periodical of the Universal Peace Union that was published in "Parkesburg and Philadelphia." Note your great-great grandfather Arnold Delisle's (a.k.a. Arthur Lee's) picture in the portrait gallery of peace advocates that had been assembled by Mrs. Spray. The article appeared on pgs. 142-143 of the above-mentioned issue of "The Peacemaker":

"Commemoration Meeting in Colorado

Editors Peacemaker:--
You will be pleased to know that far away in our niche in the Rocky Mountains, the seed of "Peace and Arbitration" has taken root, and has a fine and vigorous growth in the work of Mrs. Ruth H. Spray.
At her pleasant home on May 17th, in her regular "Tuesday Club" work, she celebrated the fourth anniversary of the opening of the "Hague Court of Arbitration" in an enthusiastic manner. Several of the club members assisted Mrs. Spray in presenting our national depravity and partial evolution. The work of a number of prominent peace advocates was dwelt upon. Special mention was made of the late Princess Wiszniewski's great work for peace education. Her Petition was placed on the table for all who wish to add their names.
Miss Jessie Ackerman's new mission in the field of Peace work created much interest. A tribute was paid to the peaceful record of the Israelites. It was mentioned that the latest literature and instructions of the G.A.R. are for peace.
We listened to the "Song of the Twentieth Century" by Elizabeth Lloyd, and the "Reign of Peace" by B.W. James, both of which lent charm and strength to the general subject, while the picture gallery Mrs. Spray had collected and arranged and her running comments were a positive delight. Prominent among the pictures were those of Dr. Edward Everett Hale, Dr. B.F. Trueblood, Hon. Andrew D. White, Hon. John W. Foster, Charles Sumner, Mrs. May Wright Sewall, Elihu Burrritt. And from over the sea, John Bright, Arnold DeLisle, Henri Dunant, Prince Mirza Kahn, Princess Wiszniewski, M. Frederic Passy, Queen Wilhelmina--and Mrs. Spray begged us not to smile when she came to that of the poor little Czar of Russia, saying she believed the Czar was honest in his words for peace, but powerless to carry out his convictions under existing circumstances.
The parlors of our hostess were fragrant with apple blossoms, and delicious refreshments were served.
The beautiful picture in colors of the "Ensign of Peace"--the star spangled banner on a field of white--presented by Dr. Robert S. Freedman of New York through Miss Arabella Carter, of Philadelphia, was given to each as a souvenir of this most instructive occasion.
M. Alexina Fox,
Salida, Colo. "

Tony, the G.A.R. mentioned in the article was the Grand Army of the Republic, the main organization of Union veterans of the American Civil War (a.k.a. The War Between the States). As the United States at this time operated under isolationism (i.e. not meddling in the affairs of foreign nations) and the Monroe Doctrine (we'd stay out of the wars and affairs of foreign nations and in return expected them to not create any more colonies in North and South America, not attack any country on either American continent, and stay out of our affairs), you can see how a Civil War veterans organization could support pacifism because pacifism meant staying out of foreign wars.
Don't forget to contact the Church of the Brethren as Arthur Lee claimed to have been a minister of that denomination. Also don't forget to contact the Royal Historical Society as he claimed to be a fellow of that organization. Contacting the International Red Cross would probably be a good idea, given his involvement with them. The American Peace Society apparently still exists and it would be good to contact them because Alfred Love's Universal Peace Union was originally formed by dissident members of the APS who were shocked by the APS's failure to oppose the Civil War (since the APS saw the Union as justly punishing criminals--i.e., the rebelling Confederates). Above all--Above all!!--don't neglect to contact Swarthmore College. I really think they may have material about Arnold/Arthur.
The above article mentions the portrait of Arnold/Arthur. Do you have a picture of him?
Darryl

[Darryl Thompson]

Tony,
The following article appeared in the June 1904 (Vol. 23, No. 6) issue of "The Peacemaker," the periodical of the Universal Peace Union that was published in "Parkesburg and Philadelphia." Note your great-great grandfather Arnold Delisle's (a.k.a. Arthur Lee's) picture in the portrait gallery of peace advocates that had been assembled by Mrs. Spray. The article appeared on pgs. 142-143 of the above-mentioned issue of "The Peacemaker":

Commemoration Meeting in Colorado

Editors Peacemaker:--
You will be pleased to know that far away in our niche in the Rocky Mountains, the seed of "Peace and Arbitration" has taken root, and has a fine and vigorous growth in the work of Mrs. Ruth H. Spray.
At her pleasant home on May 17th, in her regular "Tuesday Club" work, she celebrated the fourth anniversary of the opening of the "Hague Court of Arbitration" in an enthusiastic manner. Several of the club members assisted Mrs. Spray in presenting our national depravity and partial evolution. The work of a number of prominent peace advocates was dwelt upon. Special mention was made of the late Princess Wiszniewski's great work for peace education. Her Petition was placed on the table for all who wish to add their names.
Miss Jessie Ackerman's new mission in the field of Peace work created much interest. A tribute was paid to the peaceful record of the Israelites. It was mentioned that the latest literature and instructions of the G.A.R. are for peace.
We listened to the "Song of the Twentieth Century" by Elizabeth Lloyd, and the "Reign of Peace" by B.W. James, both of which lent charm and strength to the general subject, while the picture gallery Mrs. Spray had collected and arranged and her running comments were a positive delight. Prominent among the pictures were those of Dr. Edward Everett Hale, Dr. B.F. Trueblood, Hon. Andrew D. White, Hon. John W. Foster, Charles Sumner, Mrs. May Wright Sewall, Elihu Burrritt. And from over the sea, John Bright, Arnold DeLisle, Henri Dunant, Prince Mirza Kahn, Princess Wiszniewski, M. Frederic Passy, Queen Wilhelmina--and Mrs. Spray begged us not to smile when she came to that of the poor little Czar of Russia, saying she believed the Czar was honest in his words for peace, but powerless to carry out his convictions under existing circumstances.
The parlors of our hostess were fragrant with apple blossoms, and delicious refreshments were served.
The beautiful picture in colors of the "Ensign of Peace"--the star spangled banner on a field of white--presented by Dr. Robert S. Freedman of New York through Miss Arabella Carter, of Philadelphia, was given to each as a souvenir of this most instructive occasion.
M. Alexina Fox,
Salida, Colo.

Tony, the G.A.R. mentioned in the article was the Grand Army of the Republic, the main organization of Union veterans of the American Civil War (a.k.a. The War Between the States). As the United States at this time operated under isolationism (i.e. not meddling in the affairs of foreign nations) and the Monroe Doctrine (we'd stay out of the wars and affairs of foreign nations and in return expected them to not create any more colonies in North and South America, not attack any country on either American continent, and stay out of our affairs), you can see how a Civil War veterans organization could support pacifism because pacifism meant staying out of foreign wars.
Tony, don't forget to contact the Church of the Brethren as Arthur Lee claimed to have been a minister of that denomination. Also don't forget to contact the Royal Historical Society as he claimed to be a fellow of that organization. Contacting the International Red Cross would probably be a good idea, given his involvement with them. The American Peace Society apparently still exists and it would be good to contact them because Alfred Love's Universal Peace Union was originally formed by dissident members of the APS who were shocked by the APS's failure to oppose the Civil War (since the APS saw the Union as justly punishing criminals--i.e., the rebelling Confederates). Above all--Above all!!--don't neglect to contact Swarthmore College. I really think they may have material about Arnold/Arthur.
The above article mentions the portrait of Arthur. Do you have a picture of him?

[Darryl Thompson]

Tony,
How are you? Have you been able to turn up anything more about Arnold DeLisle/Arthur Lee?
Darryl Thompson

[Darryl Thompson]

Tony,
Have you turned up anything more about your great-grandfather Arthur?
Darryl

[Lesley Robertson]

Darryl, Tony will only see your messages if he comes to the forum, which he hasn’t done since June last year. He will only get our notification that someone has replied if his electronic contact information is still the same.