Information please....

[LynV]

Hi, I'm looking for Searles living, it is believed in the Devonport/Plymouth area. Unfortunately, I am currently only following word of mouth and looking for concrete proof. Here's the information I do have:

A Kathleen Searle was born around 1897. Her mother (first name unknown, although maiden name is believed to have been Ward) had several other children and her husband died quite young. Sorry I can't give you more information but perhaps someone can tie this down to a family in a census and then work back from there?

More information from censuses may help me to confirm these Searles are correct and help jog and elderly relatives brain!

Thanks,

LynV

[Geoffers]

Have you tried the 1901 census? The index is free to search and shows:
Kathleen SEARLE, aged 2, bn Exmouth, living Littleham

Searching for female Searles living in Littleham gives 13 hits, it includes three who were of child-bearing age, all born in Exmouth:
Annie, aged 33 - Ellen, aged 27 - Lily, aged 22

and two males who were in the same age-group as the above and also born in Exmouth: Henry, aged 33 - Levi, aged 21

Paying to view the image might give you the answers you are after.
It depends how definite you are on the maiden name of teh mother - but you might try searching the GRO index for the above and see if there is a SEARLE - WARD marriage which corresponds with any of the above 5 people (one of teh women may have been married and husband at sea).

The GRO index of births has an entry for Kathleen Irene SEARLE born St.Thomas RD, June 1898, vol 5b page 30 - if this is her, her birth certificate will give details of her parents.

Geoffers

[MattVernon]

OK, I've now found my Searles on the 1901 census so could someone please follow this family back:

Charles Searle/Head/Married/28/Seaman-Royal Navy/born Plymouth, Devon
Katy? Searle/Wife/Married/25/born [Les Mayo]? Ireland
Florence K. Searle/Daughter/Unmarried/3/born Plymouth, Devon
Kate Young/Mother-in-Law/Widow/56/born Plymouth, Devon

Any information going back would be much appreciated.

Matt

[DebbieAnn]

Not to confuse things, but have you seen this?

1901:

Maria Kate Searle abt 1879 Plymouth, Devon, England Boarder Hornsey Middlesex (elementary school teacher)
Elizabeth Ward abt 1846 Hatherleigh, Devon, England Head Hornsey Middlesex
Florence W Ward abt 1879 Petrockstow, Devon, England Daughter Hornsey Middlesex
John H Ward abt 1876 Petrockstow, Devon, England Son Hornsey Middlesex
Janetta Riley abt 1879 Pentonville, London, England Boarder Hornsey Middlesex

RG13/1241
Registration district: Edmonton
Sub-registration district: Hornsey
ED, institution, or vessel: 25
Folio: 5
Page: 1

Debbie

[DebbieAnn]

Matt,

Checked on the Charles Searle, et. al. you found in 1901. Wife's name looks like Ruby, not Kate. Born: Ireland - Co. (County) Mayo. Daughter was Florence Ruby (Florence R.) b: Sep qtr 1897, Plymouth (vol 5b pg 256).

Does this help?

Debbie

[Ladkyis]

Are LynV and MattV the same person or are we looking at two different people? cos that confused the **** out of me


Ann

[DebbieAnn]

They're mother and son.

Debbie

[MattVernon]

Ok, where do I start??

Firstly, the other family on the 1901 census is, I'm afraid, not right, as I know that the daughters names were 'Kathleen Florence', thus the 'W' can't be her.

The Searles I am following, I believe, are right. I can see 'Ruby' for the mother and accept that but a)I put in Florence K and she came back (though I know these can be incorrect) b)She is of the right age in the right place and c)If you look at the Mother-In-Law below her name cannot possibly be anything but 'Kate' so it seems the transcriber did his 'K's and his 'R's very similarly.

I think it fits too well to give up on this link for now, so I'm sticking with this.

Having said that, thanks very much Debbie for the extra stuff, it is appreciated, even if I've poo-pooed it all.

As it is, the question still stands: can we trace these people back in the censuses please??

Thanks,

Matt

[DebbieAnn]

Matt,

I included the other 1901 family only because it tied Searles and Wards at the same address. Not that Florence W. Ward was your Florence K. Searle, but that it might tie in somewhere, as Lyn had said she thought one of the Searle wife's maiden name was Ward, and I thought you would find it interesting.

I included the birth info for Florence Ruby from the GRO index so you could send for it to see if her parents were Charles and Ruby, as it's difficult to read the original census, and as you say, the enumerator's K's and R's are much alike. If the birth record for Florence Ruby matches your census, then you'll know if you need to keep looking for Florence K. Searle.

Debbie

[Geoffers]

Ok, where do I start??
I suggest from the beginning, it's getting me confused. Is this your direct maternal line, or a branch which interests you?

Looking at the 1901 census index, there seem to be three possible matches on the information given

Florence K SEARLE, aged 3, bn Plymouth, living Plymouth
Kathleen I SEARLE, aged 2, bn Exmouth, living Littleham
Kathleen Frances SEARLE, aged 4, bn Ryde (IoW), living Chudleigh

The search I used was to look for any Kathleen/Kate/Katherine/Catherine or had the initial K who may have had a second name Florence, who was born around 1897 +/- 2 years and had a Devon connection.

Do you have a death certificate, or entry from the GRO death index, or marriage certificate for this lady which may help to tie down when she was born? A marriage certificate would be ideal as this should give her father's name and occupation.
continued.....

[Geoffers]

part 2....


Firstly, the other family on the 1901 census is, I'm afraid, not right, as I know that the daughters names were 'Kathleen Florence', thus the 'W' can't be her.
Do you have her birth certificate, or entry from a baptismal register which shows her names?

If you don't and have no other source of information to support/refute the entry, then how do you know she didn't have a third forename??? Census returns frequently do not record a full name and/or initials.

It may well be the wrong entry, but it would be wrong to dismiss it without further evidence.

continued.....

[Geoffers]

part 3....


As it is, the question still stands: can we trace these people back in the censuses please??
Everything I've written so far may seem blunt and unhelpful. The reason is actually to try and help you, I've seen too many people follow the wrong line from an early stage because they have made a wrong guess or assumption, or had the wrong feeling.

There is no short cut to getting it right. This involves getting some evidence to give you Kathleen's father's name (mariage certificate), her period of birth (marriage and death certificates, GRO death index).

Just on the information given in this thread I think it would be wrong to follow the census returns back. If you have other information to support tracing back this line, fair enough. The first place you could try is the 1881 census - a transcript is available to search free on the familysearch web-site. Register with Ancestry and you can search their indexes and view some transcripts without having to pay anything.
Geoffers

[MattVernon]

Ok Geoffers, I've got the index entry of her marriage and death, both calling her Kathleen F. Searle/Vernon(her married name). Speaking to her grandaughter, my great aunt, she told me that was right as her middle name was Florence.

Is this not enough information???

[Geoffers]

I've got the index entry of her marriage and death, both calling her Kathleen F. Searle/Vernon(her married name). Speaking to her grandaughter, my great aunt, she told me that was right as her middle name was Florence. Is this not enough information???This is where I may seem very picky to you; but no, on it's own the above would not be enough for me. I write this from experience at having made the most horrendous cock-ups when I first started research in the early 70's because there was no internet, little interest and fewer books on family history, no one to say to me "hang on a second, let's look at this...."

There is no Law to say that you must research and record a family in a certain way. The standards are those we set ourselves. For me, the great benefit of forums such as these is that experience can be shared and suggestions made, so that you can make a judgement as to what to do. At the end of the day, it isn't my family history - but I'd still hate to see someone else make the same errors as I did.

continued.....

[Geoffers]

part 2...

In your shoes I'd get the marriage certificate before proceeding further back; it may well confirm the information you already have; but it will give you other information that you don't now appear to possess.

Memories are funny things and often lead us astray - however, from the death index, does this give her age or does it record her date of birth (more recent entries in the GRO index include this) so that you could search the GRO birth index to confirm her name as recorded there?

Geoffers

[Wirral]

Just to put in my twopenneth, I agree with Debbie. The wife is Ruby, the daughter Florence R. & the mother-in-law Kate. If you look further down the page ("Railway", "Rose" & "Rockett") you can see that the enumerator shapes the letter "R" in the same way. There is no other "K" on that page (page 36), but if you go to page 34 you will see that there is a clear difference between the two (see schedule 284 for "Richard" & schedule 285 for "Kate").

The start of the letter R is with a straight left-to-right, oblique stroke, that of a K has a short, nearly horizontal stroke.
The loop of the letter R is formed clockwise, that of the upper arm of the letter K is formed anti-clockwise.
There is no loop at the foot of the 1st downstroke in the letter R, there is one with the K.

I also fully agree with Geoffers on getting the certificates first. Hands up all those who have never pursued the wrong line! Wot, no hands? :rolleyes:

[Geoffers]

Just to put in my twopenneth.....the daughter Florence R.
To back this up, the GRO birth index Sept 1897 has Florence Ruby Searle, bn Plymouth

Geoffers

[Wirral]

What about this entry in the 1901 census?
RG13/2051 folio 112 page 6, Old Exeter Street, Chudleigh, Devon
George Ed. Searle, head, S, 50, Painter, own account, at home, Chudleigh Devon
Frances Searle sister S 45 Chudleigh Devon
Thomas Sullivan [?] Searle nephew M 30 Baker [bread cake], worker, at home, Chudleigh Devon
Georgina Elizabeth Searle wife M 30, Isle of Wight, Sandown
T??? Mary Searle, dau 6 Isle of Wight Ryde
Kathleen Frances Searle dau 4 Isle of Wight, Ryde
Winifred Veronica Searle, dau 1, Isle of Wight, Sandown