Vickers or Sirman,

[nikki sager]

hi,i am trying to trace my family,ive got so far back and cannot seem to get any further!has anyone got anything on John Hedley Vickers,who married Emily Townsend?they appear on the 1900 census,married, and im also looking for info on Joseph Sirman who married a Selina,i dont know her maiden name.they are my g.g.g.grandparents and am struggling to get any further back.they were all in the witney area and all in the Coggs Parish.i am very new to this and would really appreciate any info or advice.thankyou!

[Geoffers]

hi,i am trying to trace my family,ive got so far back and cannot seem to get any further!has anyone got anything on John Hedley Vickers,who married Emily Townsend?they appear on the 1900 census,married, and im also looking for info on Joseph Sirman who married a Selina,i dont know her maiden name.they are my g.g.g.grandparents and am struggling to get any further back.they were all in the witney area and all in the Coggs Parish.i am very new to this and would really appreciate any info or advice.thankyou!A little bit more information and we'll hopefully be able to point you in the right direction. So, you have John VICKERS and Emily TOWNSEND in the 1901 census. Were they married at this time, what were their ages and places of birth and if married did they have any children in 1901?

Do you have a marriage certificate for this couple? If not and you are not sure how to look for and obtain it, please ask.

Similar questions about Joseph and Selina SIRMAN

continued.....

[Geoffers]

Using the information you have given on Joseph and Selina Sirman, I'll give an example of what might be found fairly easily. This assumes that Joseph and Selina Sirman were married. First off, a birth certificate for one of their children would give you Selina's maiden name.

Using the index to the 1901 census. There are several SIRMANs in Cogges (modern spelling is with an 'e'). These are: William 61, Harriet 59, Sarah 50, Annie 25, James 19, John 23, Joseph, 28 and Selina 27 (Selina is shown as being born in Lechlade, Glos) and Joseph aged 5mth (was he the son of Joseph and Selina? Order his birth certificate to find out).

continued.......

[Geoffers]

part 3....

The General Register Office (GRO) index is available on a pay-per-view site 1837online but a project to transcribe the index exists and is freely available at http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl (note it is not complete and does contain errors, but is a useful starting point). If you don't what the index is, or its use, please ask.

Using the freebmd site I found a record for a birth:

December 1900
SIRMAN, Joseph James - Witney RD, vol 3a page 896

continued....

[Geoffers]

part 4.....

So, if Joseph aged 28 in the 1901 census is this Joseph's dad, he may have only recently married.

Again searching freebmd I found:

December 1899
SIRMAN, Joseph Robert - Faringdon RD, vol 2c, page 623

An entry exists for Selina SELWOOD in the same Quarter and Year and with the same reference. So it seems possible that Joseph SIRMAN married Selina SELWOOD. A birth certificate one of their children would confirm this, as would ordering the marriage certificate for the couple.

continued.....

[Geoffers]

part 5......

Again making an assumption that the Joseph aged 28 in the 1901 census is your chap, I searched the 1881 census, a transcript is available on the familysearch web-site and the transcript is available on CD-rom. It records:

RG11/1515 f6 p5
Oxford Road, Cogges
Joseph SURMAN, head, mar, 40, Brewer's Labourer, bn Cogges
Sarah Surman, wife, mar, 35, born Fulbrook
Eleanor M Surman, dau, 9, bn Witney
Joseph R Surman, son, 8, bn Witney
Annie E Surman, dau, 6, bn Cogges
John E Surman, son, 4, bn Cogges
Sarah Ann Surman, dau, 2, bn Cogges

continued....

[Geoffers]

part 6.....

Going back to freebmd and looking for a possible marriage for Joseph (senior) around 1868-1873 shows a hit:

September 1869
SURMAN, Joseph - Witney RD, vol 3a, page 1009

with an entry for a Sarah Ann PAINTIN which has the same reference; so again this may possibly be his wife.

The birth of their son, Joseph also seems to be shown:

March 1873
SURMAN, Joseph Robert - Witney RD, vol 3a page 748

continued....

[Geoffers]

part 7...

The 1901 census shows many of the Sirmans were farm workers. There is a good chance that they were working at Cogges Manor Farm, which is now a museum open to the public:
www.
witney.net/cogges-manor-farm-museum.htm

Now, this information may be incorrect - you do have to check it for yourself, you must get the relevant certificates to confirm the information which I have given and which may (or may not) be correct.

Proceed methodically, record everything and where/when you found it. If you are new to research, buy a good book on tracing your family history. If anything I have typed is as clear as mud, ask and I'll try to explain things better.

Do you live anywhere near to Witney? There is quite a good local studies section in the library and I'd be quite happy to show you what to look for and where.

Geoffers

[Geoffers]

part 8....

I've just been into Witney and had 10 minutes to spare, so had a browse through some of their resources to try and confirm some of the information which I've typed in earlier replies.

The parish register entries are taken from OFHS transcripts in Witney library.

First the 1901 census for Cogges (I'll stick to the modern spelling):

RG13/1395

f8 p7 sch.39
Oxford Road
Sarah A SIRMAN, hd, wid, 50, laundress, bn Swinbrook
Annie E Sirman, dau, unm, 25, glove machinist, bn Cogges
John E Sirman, son, unm, 23, drayman, bn Cogges
John G PORTER, grandson, 6, bn Cogges
James Ths Sirman, son, 19, painter, bn Cogges

continued....

[Geoffers]

part 9....
1901 census again
f11 p13 sch.79
High Cogges
William SIRMAN, hd, mar, 61, ag.lab, bn Cogges
Harriet Sirman, wf, mar, 59, Glover, bn Cogges

f12 p16 sch.102
Newlands
Robert SIRMAN, hd, mar, 53, gen labourer, bn Cogges
Sarah Sirman, wf, mar, 57, bn Cogges

f14 p19 sch.121
Newlands
Joseph SIRMAN, hd, mar, 28, Yardman on farm, bn Witney
Selina Sirman, wf, mar, 27, bn Lechlade, Glos
Joseph J Sirman, son, 5mth, bn Cogges

continued...

[Geoffers]

part 10.....
1901 census (dwelling next to Joseph)
f14 p19 sch.122
Newlands
Walter SIRMAN, hd, mar, 36, labourer for coal merchant, bn Cogges
Elizabeth Sirman, wf, mar, 30, bn Bainton, Glos
Elsie Sirman, dau, 8, bn Cogges
Alfred Sirman, son, 4, bn Cogges

Then going to parish registers

Cogges Parish Register - bapt 25 Nov 1900
Joseph James SIRMAN son of Joseph Robert & Selina, father a labourer

Witney St.Mary Parish Register - bapt 14 Feb 1873
Joseph Robert SURMAN son of Joseph & Mary Ann, father a Brewer's man

continued....

[Geoffers]

part 11.....

Witney St.Mary Parish Register - marr 4 Sep 1869 after banns
Joseph SURMAN, sm, ofa, drayman, son of John Surman a shepherd
Sarah Ann PAINTIN, sw, ofa, dau of Edward Paintin, a labourer
wit: James WALKER, Edward PAINTIN, Hannah SURMAN

Cogges Parish Register - bapt 8 Aug 1841
Joseph SIRMAN son of John & Mary, father a labourer

The 1851 census then gives the birthplace of John Sirman
HO107/1731 f599 p16 sch.63
Cogges
John SIRMAN, hd, mar, 46, ag.lab, bn Stanton Harcourt
Mary Sirman, wf, mar, 47, bn Cogges
Ann Sirman, dau, 24, bn Cogges
John Sirman, son, 15, ag.lab, bn Cogges
William Sirman, son, 11, ag.lab, bn Cogges
Joseph Sirman, son, 9, scholar, bn Cogges
Robert Sirman, son, 3, bn Cogges
Joseph WALKER, Father-in-law, wid, 80, bn South Leigh
continued...

[Geoffers]

part 12.....

Further from parish registers

Cogges Parish Register - marr 14 May 1826
John SIRMAN, sm, otp,
Mary WALKER, sw, otp
wit: Thomas Sirman and Silpah PRATLEY

Stanton Harcourt Parish Register - bapt 13 Apr 1806
John SURMAN son of James & Sarah, born the same day

Stanton Harcourt Parish Register - 9 Jun 1803 by licence
James SIRMAN, otp
Sarah CLACK, otp
wit: Sophia DAVIS, Martha JOHNSON

continued...

[Geoffers]

part the last.....

Stanton Harcourt Parish Register - bapt 16 Jan 1778
James SIRMAN son of Thomas & Ann

Stanton Harcourt Parish Register - marr 12 Dec 1771
Thomas SIRMAN, widr, otp
Ann ALDSWORTH, sw, otp
wit: William SESSIONS, Willam CRUTCH

Stanton Harcourt Parish Register - bapt 11 Feb 1746
Thomas SIRMAN son of Thomas & Ann, 19 days old

The above is just the bare bones, there's lots more you can find by digging around. Do not take the above as accurate - apart from census returns, I've typed up handwritten notes of a fiche copy of a transcript of a register. There's an awful lot of places that an error could have been made (including me). Use the above only as a guide on where to look.

But, do look I only had a few minutes to spare, there are lots and lots of Sirmans in Cogges and Stanton Harcourt - plus the other names are all familiar to me as being local. Anyway enough of my ramblings; I hope this gives you a start and some ideas. If there's owt not clear, ask

Geoffers

[nikki sager]

Thankyou so much for your help.i have plenty of information to start sorting through and i have a good start.i think i need to establish the correct spelling of the surname as ive just discovered today after a conversation with my grandmother that at some point after marriage,they slightly changed the spelling of their name!but you have given me plenty to start with.

[nikki sager]

i have some information on John Hedley Vickers and Emily now.information I found in the 1901 census,John Hedley Vickers was born in 1870,birthplace was High Wycombe.At the time of the census he was registered as being in Witney civil parish,Ecclesiastical parish Witney St Mary.Emily Vickers,wife,born 1876,born in Oxfordshire,town Witney.i also have date for their marriage,September 1895.I know these are exactly who im looking for.So now the search begins for Emilys maiden name and other details.I have no dates for Sirman or Surman yet but hopefully soon after using your advice

[Geoffers]

i think i need to establish the correct spelling of the surname
I don't think this is something with which you need to concern yourself too greatly. Amongst those who were literate, standards of spelling varied greatly.

The present spelling of surnames was not really finally fixed until the start of the 20th century.

I suggest that you do consider any name which may phonetically match Sirman. In Oxfordshire I know that Surman occurs and have a vague recollection of seeing Serman.

Geoffers

[Mike Fisher]

Hi

On tuesday last I went to a talk on DNA profiling and a gentleman there was from the S?RM?N one name study who I am sure would be able to help you with your SIRMAN ancestors

Mike Fisher in foggy Droitwich

[Hedley Owens]

Hi Nikki,

I have been looking for John Hedley Vickers and have read your messages. I have little information about this person but I think I might know his occupation?. Do you have any information relating to this or if he had travelled ?

Regards

Hedley Owens

[Procat]

Hi Hedley,

Nikki hasn't been active on the forum since 2006 (if you click on her name and check her profile you can see this information to the right of the screen).

You could try sending her an email or private message.

[wsiman]

MY GRANDFATHER WILLIAM AVERY SIRMAN, BORN 1898 LAUREL DELAWARE... ANY FURTHER INFORMATION? I HAVE HEARD THAT THEY CAME FROM ENGLAND Circa. 1797...

WILLIAM SIRMAN