Carrie WILLIAMS born Helston 1900

[clare_bear]

Hi There

This is my first post, so be gentle with me!

I'm trying to find a birth certificate for my great gran and am struggling.

Her first name was Carrie, any ideas what this could have been short for (I can't find her certificate or any census entry for her under the name of Carrie). The only name I can think of that it may be short for is Caroline, any other suggestions?

Thanks for your help.

[keith9351]

Behind a name site give this :-

CARRIE
Gender: Feminine
Usage: English
Pronounced: KER-ee [key]
Extra Info: Popularity, Related Names, Namesakes, Comments
Options: Contribute Information, Add to List
Pet form of CAROLINE

Keith

[Geoffers]

Welcome to the forums

Some points which you may have already considered, if so please ignore them:

1) Did your gt-grandmum have more than one forename (say Ann Caroline) but just preferred to be called Carrie? You may have to search all entries for a surname in the General Register Office (GRO) index.

2) Was she born before 1873? The rules for registration changed about then so that a lower percantage of births were registered before then.

3) Have you found her in any census returns? Was she the eldest child - could she in fact have been born illegitimate and so registered under her mum's maiden name.

Where have you found her recorded as this name? On her child(ren)'s birth certificate(s) or her marriage certficate? or is this word of mouth from other family members?

Geoffers

[Mary Young]

Her first name was Carrie, any ideas what this could have been short for I have seen Carrie for Charlotte

[carrie]

carrie is usually short for caroline or carolyn.
have you tried variants in the spelling, my name is often spelt wrongly e.g. cari, karrie, carry. kerry. keri, cerrie, etc
regards carrie

[clare_bear]

Thanks for your help everyone. I'll have to look into misspellings etc.



1) Did your gt-grandmum have more than one forename (say Ann Caroline) but just preferred to be called Carrie? You may have to search all entries for a surname in the General Register Office (GRO) index.

I don't know if she had anotehr forename, the only name she has been known by to her daughter is Carrie, nothing else. Having said that, there are a lot of members of this side if the family (her daughter and my dad included) that are known by their middle names!


2) Was she born before 1873? The rules for registration changed about then so that a lower percantage of births were registered before then.
She was born in 1900, so this shouldn't be the case. However, she was born 'out in the sticks' in Cornwall, and they wouldn't have had much transport, so it's possible she wasn't registered.


3) Have you found her in any census returns? Was she the eldest child - could she in fact have been born illegitimate and so registered under her mum's maiden name.
Haven't found her in the 1901 census, so I'll have to look into the above suggestions further!


Where have you found her recorded as this name? On her child(ren)'s birth certificate(s) or her marriage certficate? or is this word of mouth from other family members?

Her marriage certificate is 'Carrie Williams'.

Thanks for your help.

[Geoffers]

She was born in 1900, so this shouldn't be the case. However, she was born 'out in the sticks' in Cornwall, and they wouldn't have had much transport, so it's possible she wasn't registered.I would still expect it to be registered


Haven't found her in the 1901 census, so I'll have to look into the above suggestions further!Her marriage certificate is 'Carrie Williams'.
The 1901 census shows a Carrie Williams aged 2, bn St. Blazey and living there with a whole mass of other Williamseseses.

If this is her and the census age is correct, she may have been born around 1898-1899 - have you tried the GRO index for that period?

continued.....

[Geoffers]

part 2...

and if the census is the correct Carrie, would this entry from the GRO births index be of any use to you.....?

Dec 1898, WILLIAMS, Carrie - St.Austell, Vol.5c Page 92

Do double check to make sure that I noted it down correctly.

Geoffers

[clare_bear]

part 2...

and if the census is the correct Carrie, would this entry from the GRO births index be of any use to you.....?

Dec 1898, WILLIAMS, Carrie - St.Austell, Vol.5c Page 92

Do double check to make sure that I noted it down correctly.

Geoffers

Thanks for that- very much appreciated. I'll look into it.

We're pretty sure that she was born in the Wendron district of Cornwall, though, but this is only from family word-of-mouth, which could be wrong. I guess it's possible that the family moved soon after she was born, too.

Thanks again, that's fantastic. I'll get researching this asap.

[clare_bear]

I would still expect it to be registered

The 1901 census shows a Carrie Williams aged 2, bn St. Blazey and living there with a whole mass of other Williamseseses.

If this is her and the census age is correct, she may have been born around 1898-1899 - have you tried the GRO index for that period?

continued.....

I've finally had a chance to start looking into this!

I've decided on a change of tactic, due to the fact that 'Carrie's' daughter is very sure that she was born in the Helston, Cornwall area.

So, I've searched for all Williams' in the Helston region at around the time of Carrie's supposed birth date (9th Nov 1900). I've come up with a couple of potentials:

Florence Esther C Williams (I'm hoping the C is short for Caroline!) and Elizabeth Catherine (which, feasibly Catherine could haev been changed to Carrie). We think Carrie's father was called John - can anyone look up the 1901 census info for me (I can obviously do it on the internet, but I've already spent a fortune on it today, so if anyone has free access, I'd be very grateful for the help!).

Any help, very much appreciated.

Cheers

[BrendaE]

Hi There

This is my first post, so be gentle with me!

I'm trying to find a birth certificate for my great gran and am struggling.

Her first name was Carrie, any ideas what this could have been short for (I can't find her certificate or any census entry for her under the name of Carrie). The only name I can think of that it may be short for is Caroline, any other suggestions?

Thanks for your help.

The (several) Carolines in my family all had their names shorted to Carrie.

Bren

[sally]

Hi Bren

Has 'Carrie's' daughter got her own birth certificate? Hopefully this will show her mother's name as more than Carrie although I have a female ancestor who is Francis on her marriage certificate and Fanny on her son's birth certificate.

Regards
Sally

[christanel]

1901 census RG13 piece 2233 folio 61 page 12

Helston Cornwall 5 Godolphin (?) Road
Fanny Allen wife 40 charwoman born Hendron (?)
Annie dau 21 general srvant domestic Hendron
Janes son 14 Errand boy Helston
Ida Chegwidden boarder 9 Helston
Edith Francis boarder 3 Helston
Carrie Williams 6 months boarder Helston

On the previous page and living at no 3.

Florence Williams wife 34 living on own means Born Enfield Middlesex
Alice dau 14 Mawgan
Eliza dau 11 Helston
Frederick son 8 Camborne
Eva dau 2 Helston
John Williams son 1 Helston

Both Fanny Allen and Florence Williams say they are the wife of ...but no husband in sight. Are they fishermen?

Any good?
Christina

[Sandyhall]

We think Carrie's father was called John
Cheers

As you only think her fathers name is John you need to make sure it is before you do anything else. Or you could get the wrong family altogether. Williams is a common surname name by that I mean their are lots of them.

Her Marriage cert should tell you her Fathers name and his Occupation and weather he was still alive when she married. I would look for this first before you look for her birth.

Sandy

[Sandyhall]

Search of C Williams from Helston, Cornwall brought up the following

Births Sep 1898
Williams Clara Helston 5c 170
Births Mar 1899
Williams Charlotte Annie Helston 5c 161
Births Mar 1900
Williams Crisilda Caroline J Helston 5c 159
Births Jun 1901
WILLIAMS Clarice Alene Helston 5c 169
Births Sep 1902
Williams Courtney Helston 5c 156

Sandy

[clare_bear]

1901 census RG13 piece 2233 folio 61 page 12

Helston Cornwall 5 Godolphin (?) Road
Fanny Allen wife 40 charwoman born Hendron (?)
Annie dau 21 general srvant domestic Hendron
Janes son 14 Errand boy Helston
Ida Chegwidden boarder 9 Helston
Edith Francis boarder 3 Helston
Carrie Williams 6 months boarder Helston


Both Fanny Allen and Florence Williams say they are the wife of ...but no husband in sight. Are they fishermen?

Any good?
Christina

That census entry looks correct - thanks very much! Carrie was unofficially adopted by Fanny Allen, I think (well, an Allen anyway). And the address is in the right area too. Thanks ever so much.

I don't know if Fanny Allen's wife was a fisherman, but I have a great aunt who may be able to tell me, I'll ask her if she knows.

Thanks very much, Christina, that's brilliant.

[clare_bear]

Search of C Williams from Helston, Cornwall brought up the following

Births Sep 1898
Williams Clara Helston 5c 170
Births Mar 1899
Williams Charlotte Annie Helston 5c 161
Births Mar 1900
Williams Crisilda Caroline J Helston 5c 159
Births Jun 1901
WILLIAMS Clarice Alene Helston 5c 169
Births Sep 1902
Williams Courtney Helston 5c 156

Sandy

Thanks, Sandy. Hmmmm, hard to tell if my Carrie is any of those...I guess Clarice Alene is a possibility as I think she was born in Nov 1900 (which would fit with the above census entry, which I'm pretty confident about).

Of course, it's possible she wasn't called Carrie at all, I suppose - there is a bit of a history of that in that side of the family! She is on her marriage certificate and 2 of her daughters birth cerificates as Carrie, but she was a pretty spirited lady, so if she wanted to be called Carrie, I reckon she would have been, official documents or not!

And her father was definitely John on her marriage certificate, he was a tin miner, so that could be an avenue worth exploring for more information, I suppose ?

Thanks for all the help...the search continues :)

[clare_bear]

Dennis Joseph Helston 5c 321
PUNNETT Florence Katherine Helston 5c 321
TRELOAR Caroline Helston 5c 321
WILLIAMS John Helston 5c 321

What do you think? Worth getting the marriage certificate to see if he's a Tin Miner, or would that still be too tenuous? As I've been trying to find this for so long, I'm inclined to get over-excited and latch onto the first link!

I'll try to ask my aunt asap if the name Florence rings a bell. There is no mention of a baby Florence (or similar) on the 1901 census entry, but it's possible that if Carrie was with a neighbour, Florence could be too - especially as they were both unofficially adopted after their mum's death.

Cheers all, you rock!

[dawn/karen]

i have found their wedding and she was named on that as carrie

Marriages Sep 1922 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


GOLDSWORTHY James H Williams Penzance 5c 481

WILLIAMS Carrie Goldsworthy Penzance 5c 481

[dawn/karen]

i would suggest that as the lady will have passed on now we should work back with her age from the death certificate as there are a few carrie williams from that area

[clare_bear]

i would suggest that as the lady will have passed on now we should work back with her age from the death certificate as there are a few carrie williams from that area

She died in 1988, and was supposedly born in 1900, so was about 88 when she died. Her death certificate says she was born in Wendron (or that district, I suppose it could be).

Thanks for all the help, I feel as if we're getting somewhere.

[Rove]

My grandmother's name was Carmelina and she was called Carrie.

That also applies to Carmel, Carmen and Carmela.

[dawn/karen]

when i had a look at the cencus for her with her grandparents and james a and loveday on the 1901 cencus, i checked them both out, loveday married in 1914 to a man called stevens, and then died in 1918, but you feel this date is to far to be her mum? james married an elizabeth mary, but im not too sure when or if this lady died, can anyone help out please?

[mfwebb]

I've only just read this thread so apologies for the late input.

I have a great aunt who was baptised Keziah Webb. I have recently made contact with a granddaughter of Keziah who tells me that she was always known as Carrie. She didn't know her proper name until I was able to send her a copy of the marriage certificate of Amos Dawson & Keziah Webb.

[christanel]

Spent a couple of hours getting my head around this little again but still haven't worked out where the info below comes in. I am sloooooow..


when i had a look at the cencus for her with her grandparents and james a and loveday on the 1901 cencus, i checked them both out, loveday married in 1914 to a man called stevens, and then died in 1918, but you feel this date is to far to be her mum? james married an elizabeth mary, but im not too sure when or if this lady died, can anyone help out please?

However as regards the twin of Carrie I thought I would go looking for another 6 month old baby in the 1901 census and did find another boarder 6 months old Lois. But on looking for her birth there isn't another Williams on the page.
Ok, Florence Esther C Williams and Elizabeth Catherine are on the same page in Dec 1/4 5c 163 so could this be them?
Florence Esther C died June 1/4 1901 5c 119 but where is she in the 1901 census? I can't find her and she should be there because the census was taken on March 31.

Ok clare_bear tell me exactly where you are up to and what I am supposed to be looking for. But do it slowly and in words of one syllable.|laugh1|

Alice, daughter of Florence born Enfield Middlesex (see my previous post re 1901 census) in 1891 census appears to be with her grandparents Benjamin and Eliza Hodge RG12 piece 1840 folio 117 page 8. She is down as Alice P Williams born Mawgan which fits in with 1901 census.
Therre is also another Hodge family and a William Williams and his family on same page.
Christina

[clare_bear]

Not 100%, it is family rumour. The story is that Carrie had a twin sister, her mum died when they/she was very young and that the twins were separated and never saw each other again (which would fit if Florence was one of them and died!). Carrie was brought up by the Allens. Of course, the vast majority of that could be inaccurate as it was never really talked about it seems.

Thanks

[clare_bear]

Spent a couple of hours getting my head around this little again but still haven't worked out where the info below comes in. I am sloooooow..



However as regards the twin of Carrie I thought I would go looking for another 6 month old baby in the 1901 census and did find another boarder 6 months old Lois. But on looking for her birth there isn't another Williams on the page.
Ok, Florence Esther C Williams and Elizabeth Catherine are on the same page in Dec 1/4 5c 163 so could this be them?
Florence Esther C died June 1/4 1901 5c 119 but where is she in the 1901 census? I can't find her and she should be there because the census was taken on March 31.

Ok clare_bear tell me exactly where you are up to and what I am supposed to be looking for. But do it slowly and in words of one syllable.|laugh1|

Alice, daughter of Florence born Enfield Middlesex (see my previous post re 1901 census) in 1891 census appears to be with her grandparents Benjamin and Eliza Hodge RG12 piece 1840 folio 117 page 8. She is down as Alice P Williams born Mawgan which fits in with 1901 census.
Therre is also another Hodge family and a William Williams and his family on same page.
Christina

My heads starting to hurt :D

OK, here's what I know....

Facts: - Carrie aged 6 months was at the Allen house in Helston on the 1901 census.
- Fanny Allen brought her up, apparently after her mum died.
- She married Harold James Goldsworthy on the 2nd September 1922 (a year after their first daughter, Iris, was born) in Penzance Register Office.
- Her marriage certificate says her name is Carrie and also says her dad's name was John. John was dead before the marriage and he was a tin miner by profession
- she was 22 years old according to the marriage certificate, which fits with her supposed birth date of 9th November 1900
- her death certificate has her birth date as 9th Nov 1900, and she died on 6th July 1988 at her home in Gweek, nr Helston.
- her name is listed as Carrie on her marriage and death certificates, but that doesn't convince me that that was her given name - there is a definite history of not using your given name in this part of the family!! Hardly any of them did :)

Unsubstantiated family rumours:
- it is thought that she had a twin sister, and that her mum died when they were very young. The twins were split up and supposedly sent to different families, but were never in contact again. As I type this another thing has come into my tiny brain....my aunt thought that Carrie's twin went to a wealthy family

Info picked up from all your searchings:
- on the night of the census when Carrie was at the Allen's, there was a Florence Williams, aged 34, on the census in the house next door - could this have been her mum? There was no sign of a twin though, at this stage
- on the same page of BMD as an Elizabeth Catherine born in the Dec quarter of 1900, there is a Florence Esther Williams, this could feasibly be her twin. The name Florence is vaguely pricking at something in my brain, I will ask my aunt later on today if it rings any bells.
- it would seem that Florence Esther died aged 0, according to BMD, which could explain the lack of contact with Carrie after they were split up.
- according to BMD there was also a marriage between a Florence Katherine Punnett and a John Williams in Helston in Dec quarter 1886, which could be her parents

I think that's where we're at at this moment in time!

Cheers all, you're helping me loads.

Clare



OK, here's what I know....

Facts: - same as above

Unsubstantiated family rumours:
- it is thought that she had an older sister, and that her mum died when during childbirth having Carrie. The sisters were split up and supposedly sent to different families, but were never in contact again. Carrie's older sister went to a wealthy-ish family called Wearne. My aunt thinks that her sister's name could have started with the letter 'B', but she could have made this up, she says :)
- my aunt it fairly sure of this info....that Carrie was born at Lower Carnebone, Laity, Wendron (which fits with info of birthplace on death certificate..Wendron). Her father was John Williams (as on marriage certificate), and maybe a census entry in 1891 for him (at the Lower Carnebone address) may reveal something.

Info picked up from all your searchings: probably all misleading, I'm afraid

[Sandyhall]

She died in 1988, and was supposedly born in 1900, so was about 88 when she died. Her death certificate says she was born in Wendron (or that district, I suppose it could be).

Thanks for all the help, I feel as if we're getting somewhere.

HELSTON REGISTRATION DISTRICT

Registration County : Cornwall.
Created : 1.7.1837.
Abolished : 1.4.1936 (succeeded by Kerrier and Redruth districts).
Sub-districts : Breage; Crowan; Helston; St. Keverne; Wendron.
GRO volumes : IX (1837-51); 5c (1852-1936).

Regards Sandy

[clare_bear]

HELSTON REGISTRATION DISTRICT

Registration County : Cornwall.
Created : 1.7.1837.
Abolished : 1.4.1936 (succeeded by Kerrier and Redruth districts).
Sub-districts : Breage; Crowan; Helston; St. Keverne; Wendron.
GRO volumes : IX (1837-51); 5c (1852-1936).

Regards Sandy

So, it would still have been registered as Helston in a BMD entry anyway?

I have just rooted around in some old notes and found some scribblings, which may or may not be useful:

Apparently, she was living at Goldolphin Road when her mum died. Now whether that means she was living with Fanny Allen then anyway, or whether she was living next door with her potential mum, Florence Williams is anyone's guess, but it could be relevant, I suppose.

Of course we could be completely barking up the wrong tree with the Florence next door, as Williams is such a common name!

I think I need to order the birth certificate for Elizabeth Catherine Williams to se if the DOB ties up...that might be the best awy forward?

[christanel]

I think I need to order the birth certificate for Elizabeth Catherine Williams to se if the DOB ties up...that might be the best awy forward?

I think this is exactly what you should do. I wonder if they would check parentage of Florence Esther C without you actually buying the cert.
I will now print out and digest all the info you so kindly typed out and will digest overnight then see if any |idea|lights switch on for me.
Christina

[Sue Mackay]

OK, I have come a bit late to this, but as I understand it we need to try and prove that the Florence WILLIAMS on the 1901 census, next door to Carrie, was her Mum?

It may be that we have to go backwards to go forwards.

On the 1901 census Florence was 34 and born in Middlesex

A marriage has been found in Helston in 1886 between a John WILLIAMS and a Florence Katherine PUNNETT

There was a birth registered in Edmonton, Middlesex Dec qtr 1867 (3a/201) of a Florence Susannah K PUNNETT

On the 1871 census RG10; Piece: 677; Folio: 73; Page: 16
John (corn dealer) and Alice PUNNETT are living in Commerce Place, Vauxhall with their children, including
Florence S K PUNNETT 3 b Enfield, Middlesex

Could Florence have named her eldest child after her mother?

Christanel found Alice WILLIAMS in 1891 living with her grandparents Benjamin and Eliza WILLIAMS and their daughter Sarah HODGE.

This looks to be the same couple in 1871
Piece: 2304; Folio: 78; Page: 7
and they have a son John as well as a daughter Sarah.

Benjamin WILLIAMS 49 aglab b. Mawgan
Eliza wife 43 b Slithians
Sarah 10
Anne 7
John 4
Children all born Mawgan

[clare_bear]

Thanks very much for that, Sue (and definitely haven't arrived too late, it's only just hotting up!).

It is entirely possible that her eldest child was named after her mum, yes. I hadn't heard of any other children before (apart from Carrie's twin), but then Carrie probably wouldn't have known of them if they were all dispatched around the country, and with her being young when her mum died.

There is clearly a fair way to go yet, but I'm feeling we're making some progress!

I'm going to have to print all this out and digest, just like Christina! :D

[Sue Mackay]

At Clare's request I have renamed this thread (as we have moved on from "What is Carrie short for?") and put it on the Cornwall forum, in the hope that it might now be read by people with local knowledge and perhaps access to records in Cornwall

[MarkJ]

This looks to be the same couple in 1871
Piece: 2304; Folio: 78; Page: 7
and they have a son John as well as a daughter Sarah.

Benjamin WILLIAMS 49 aglab b. Mawgan
Eliza wife 43 b Slithians
Sarah 10
Anne 7
John 4
Children all born Mawgan

Presumably, "Slithians" is "Stithians"?
We are talking Mawgan in Meneage rather than Mawgan in Pydar I guess too bearing in mind that there is a link to Helston?

I haven't been following the thread until now but will have a read through and see how it is going!

Mark

[Sue Mackay]

Presumably, "Slithians" is "Stithians"?
We are talking Mawgan in Meneage rather than Mawgan in Pydar I guess too bearing in mind that there is a link to Helston?


There, I knew it was a good idea to get some Cornish folk involved!

[MarkJ]

There is a good basic summary on page 4 from Clare which covers the basics so far I discovered :) Several pages to wade through here otherwise!

I am intrigued by the details and story so far.
Think I need to make a few notes and get the whole thing straight in my head before attempting to nose around any more though!

Mark

[clare_bear]

There, I knew it was a good idea to get some Cornish folk involved!
And I should have spotted Stithians, and Mawgan in Meneage would fit with the correct area - Carrie lived in Gweek after she was married (and where one of her daughters still lives, along with my dad!).

Perhaps I should have mentioned earlier that I am from the area in Cornwall, so am at least familiar with the roads and towns! Sorry.

And thanks for taking an interest, Mark - I need to get my head around lots of the recent info too!

And thanks, Sue, for getting this somewhere where it'll be noticed by more people.

[Sue Mackay]

There is a good basic summary on page 4 from Clare which covers the basics so far I discovered :) Several pages to wade through here otherwise!



For those like me who have their system set to show 40 posts per page, and hence are only on page 2 ;) the summary Mark is talking about is #37

[clare_bear]

Oh no...disaster....! I've completely misled you all (and myself!). I seem to have made the 'twin' story up!

I've just spoken to my aunt to try to ascertain whether anything you've suggested sounds feasible, and she said it wasn't a twin Carrie had but an older sister.

So here's an updated 'what I know'! I've put new info in bold:

OK, here's what I know....

Facts: - Carrie aged 6 months was at the Allen house in Helston on the 1901 census.
- Fanny Allen brought her up, apparently after her mum died.
- She married Harold James Goldsworthy on the 2nd September 1922 (a year after their first daughter, Iris, was born) in Penzance Register Office.
- Her marriage certificate says her name is Carrie and also says her dad's name was John. John was dead before the marriage and he was a tin miner by profession
- she was 22 years old according to the marriage certificate, which fits with her supposed birth date of 9th November 1900
- her death certificate has her birth date as 9th Nov 1900, and she died on 6th July 1988 at her home in Gweek, nr Helston.
- her name is listed as Carrie on her marriage and death certificates, but that doesn't convince me that that was her given name - there is a definite history of not using your given name in this part of the family!! Hardly any of them did

Unsubstantiated family rumours:
- it is thought that she had an older sister, and that her mum died when during childbirth having Carrie. The sisters were split up and supposedly sent to different families, but were never in contact again. Carrie's older sister went to a wealthy-ish family called Wearne. My aunt thinks that her sister's name could have started with the letter 'B', but she could have made this up, she says :)
- my aunt it fairly sure of this info....that Carrie was born at Lower Carnebone, Laity, Wendron (which fits with info of birthplace on death certificate..Wendron). Her father was John Williams (as on marriage certificate), and maybe a census entry in 1891 for him (at the Lower Carnebone address) may reveal something.

Info picked up from all your searchings: probably all misleading, I'm afraid
- on the night of the census when Carrie was at the Allen's, there was a Florence Williams, aged 34, on the census in the house next door - could this have been her mum? There was no sign of a twin though, at this stage
- on the same page of BMD as an Elizabeth Catherine born in the Dec quarter of 1900, there is a Florence Esther Williams, this could feasibly be her twin. The name Florence is vaguely pricking at something in my brain, I will ask my aunt later on today if it rings any bells.
- it would seem that Florence Esther died aged 0, according to BMD, which could explain the lack of contact with Carrie after they were split up.
- according to BMD there was also a marriage between a Florence Katherine Punnett and a John Williams in Helston in Dec quarter 1886, which could be her parents

I am so sorry that I've wasted all your time, and I hope that won't stop you helping me further. I'm so keen to find this for my aunt as much as anything else, that I'm letting my sensible judgement be clouded!

I've altered the summary on page 4 (or #37) as well, to avoid further confusion

Sorry and thanks
Clare

[clare_bear]

I don't think we can be sure that her surname was changed to Wearne - as Carrie's wasn't, she may have remained as Williams. But finding some Wearne's with a B Williams living there could well help - hoping that the B stands for something very rare and enables us to find a birth entry! And worth remembering that it may not be 'B' at all!

[clare_bear]

The only B in the family to my knowledge is Beulah, I know very little about her side of the family, I'm afraid.

I think the Wearne's were a local family, but it is probably a common name in that part of Cornwall! And I know that Carrie and her sister never met up again, which may suggest that her sister although older was still pretty young, then neither would have been old enough to really know about the other.

[christanel]

Hello clare_bear
I have just been reading Diane Grant-Salmon's post in which she gives head stone inscriptions and birth and marriage details for the families you are researching.
It shows connections to both the Wearn and Goldsworthy families long before Carrie married her Goldsworthy.
I will go back and take a better look at this and see if it gives any clues re Carrie.
We really are at a bit of a standstill aren't we? I spent a lot of time yesterday looking at Wearns, Williams and Goldsworthy families but nothing stood out.:(
Christina

[clare_bear]

Hello clare_bear
I have just been reading Diane Grant-Salmon's post in which she gives head stone inscriptions and birth and marriage details for the families you are researching.
It shows connections to both the Wearn and Goldsworthy families long before Carrie married her Goldsworthy.
I will go back and take a better look at this and see if it gives any clues re Carrie.
We really are at a bit of a standstill aren't we? I spent a lot of time yesterday looking at Wearns, Williams and Goldsworthy families but nothing stood out.:(
Christina

Awww, I really appreciate you giving up your time to help me. Wearne is a common name in the area (in fact one of my great aunt's - Carrie's daughter - best friends is called Wearne) so it may not be an easy route!.

Anyone found John Williams on the 1891 census at Carnebone Farm, Laity, Wendron? I think this may be our best route at the moment.

[clare_bear]

Hi

I've found a possible 1891 census entry for John Williams:

Piece: RG12/1839 Place: Helston -Cornwall Enumeration District: 14
Civil Parish: Wendron Ecclesiastical Parish: Pencoys
Folio: 117 Page: 4 Schedule: 32
Address: Stithians Road


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
JEWELL Jane Head W F 60 Boarding-House Keeper Cornwall - Wendron
WILLIAMS John Lodger S M 30 Tin Miner(Em'ee) Cornwall - Wendron
BURRELL Joseph Lodger S M 17 Tin Miner(Em'ee) Middlesex - London
BERRYMAN Richard Lodger S M 26 Tin Miner(Em'ee) Cornwall - Wendron
TRESSIDER Angelina Dau W F 34 Charwoman(Em'ee) Cornwall - Wendron
TRESSIDER John J Gson - M 6 Cornwall - Wendron
TRESSIDER Bessie J Gdau - F 2 Cornwall - Wendron


This was the only entry for a John Williams in the Wendron area who was a tin miner. He had 'tin miner' as his occupation on Carrie's marriage certificate, so this is very possibly him.

I don't have free access to the 1901 census, but there is a John Williams, tin miner, aged 40 (he was 30 at 1891 census), in Wendron on it:


Name Age Where born Administrative county Civil parish Occupation
John Williams 35 Cornwall St Just Cornwall St Just Tin Miner
John Williams 36 Illogan Cornwall Cornwall Illogan Tin Miner
John Williams 40 Cornwall Wendron Cornwall Wendron Tin Miner
John K Williams 37 Cornwall Gwinear Cornwall Gwinear Tin Miner
John Williams 39 Cornwall Breage Cornwall Crowan Tin Miner
John Williams 38 Crowan Cornwall Cornwall Camborne Tin Miner

==================================================

I'd be grateful if someone with free access could check it for me to see if he has a wife on it (although I suspect there won't be anyway).

I'm not sure if any of this will help, but it's worth a shot.

I've already looked at some of the neighbours on the 1891 census to see if there are any eligible females who he may have married. So far, I've found nothing that ties up with marriage entries and death entries for his wife...

Thanks

[clare_bear]

Thanks for that.

I don't really know what to make of that...

I have found a marriage entry for a John Williams and an Angelina Tresidder, which as there are Tresidder's in the household caught my attention a bit, but Tresidder may have been a common name. Angeline/Angelina probably wasn't that common, surely.

Marriages Dec 1899 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Penaluna Edith Margaret Helston 5c 389
Penaluna Margaret Edith Helston 5c 389
Tresidder Angelina Helston 5c 389
Wensley Charles Samuel Helston 5c 389
Williams John Richard P Helston 5c 389

Can't find a death record on FreeBMD for either of them, at the right times though. I can't find any for a John Williams at the right time in the Helston area, but maybe I need to search further afield.

[MarkJ]

There are a number of John Williams' listed for the Wendron area in 1891 - some presumably too old to be yours, but several early middle aged ones and a couple of younger ones. What would we be looking for? The info is probably in this thread somewhere, but it is getting pretty long ;) Would he be married for example by then? I would suspect not - unless there were older children too.

So - what about John Williams, aged 20, unmarried, living with his mother, Susan in Nanswidden. Both from Mawgan? Only drawback - he is listed as an AgLab, rather than miner.

The more likely John Williams listed as a 30 year old lodger, Stithians Road, Pencoys parish - who is listed as a tin miner... This is the one mentioned, but the head of the household is actually called Jane Jewell, Her daughter, a widow, is the Tresidder (and the grandchildren). Lo and behold, the widowed daughter is called Angelina! So that will probably be the ones from the marriage you mention Clare.




Carnebone has some interesting names - Wearn(e) and Chegwidden :)

Mark

[clare_bear]

There are a number of John Williams' listed for the Wendron area in 1891 - some presumably too old to be yours, but several early middle aged ones and a couple of younger ones. What would we be looking for? The info is probably in this thread somewhere, but it is getting pretty long ;) Would he be married for example by then? I would suspect not - unless there were older children too.

So - what about John Williams, aged 20, unmarried, living with his mother, Susan in Nanswidden. Both from Mawgan? Only drawback - he is listed as an AgLab, rather than miner.

The more likely John Williams listed as a 30 year old lodger, Stithians Road, Pencoys parish - who is listed as a tin miner... This is the one mentioned, but the head of the household is actually called Jane Jewell, Her daughter, a widow, is the Tresidder (and the grandchildren). Lo and behold, the widowed daughter is called Angelina! So that will probably be the ones from the marriage you mention Clare.




Carnebone has some interesting names - Wearn(e) and Chegwidden :)

Mark

I suspect John Williams would have been about 30 or younger. He probably wouldn't have been married by 1891 as his youngest daughter was born in 1900. There was an older sister, but probably not much older...given that they lost contact, a sister who was a lot older may well have remembered she had a baby sister? His wife died in childbirth or shortly after, as far as we know. John was a tin miner on Carrie's marriage certificate (1922), but he had died before then. I imagine he would have been a tin miner all his life.

I'm quite encouraged by the John Williams and Angelina Tresidder....if only I could find a death certificate for her around about 1900/01, I'd be getting quite excited!

As for Wearnes at Carnebone...they may well be connected given that Carrie's sister was adopted by Wearnes, and they were welathy-ish...which would fit if they were farmers. Was it the 1901 census with the Wearnes at Carnebone? I'll have to think how that could fit...

Thanks, Mark

[clare_bear]

Damn, looks like we've been thwarted again...

Deaths Mar 1925 (94%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Williams Angelina 68 Helston 5c 216



Doesn't look like Angelina can be ours, she died way too late!

So that makes the John Williams, aged 30, tin miner in the 1891 census look unlikely, given that in 1901 he seemed to be living with the Jewell/Tresidder family, and probably married Angelina Tresidder.

And back to square one again....I feel right fed up now :(

[MarkJ]

Don't give up Clare - one day it will all suddenly come together I promise! We have all been stuck at some point just like you are now :)

OK, so we can probably eliminate that John from the possibles - which in itself is a result as it means one less possible to wade through!

Bear in mind that people often changed occupations as needed, depending on the work available. There was no social security, so if there was no work available in your usual line, you took whatever was on offer - so John, the AgLab *could* have turned his hand to mining if there was a poor harvest or crop failure I suppose...
Unlikely I admit, but one to bear in mind.

Mark

[clare_bear]

Thanks, Mark. You're right, at least I can rule that John Williams out!

And, I must consider that he wasn't always a tin miner.

I had a thought on the way from work this evening....

If Carrie was on the 1901 census at Fanny Allen's as a 'boarder' rather than a visitor, then her mum had probably already died. Does that sound likely? In which case, her mum's death ought to have been somewhere between Nov 1900 (when Carrie was born) and the 1901 census (end March 1901). Not that that has helped me as I can't find a likely entry on FreeBMD, but surely that could help?

[MarkJ]

Possibly she was dead - but there could be other reasons why the daughter was not with mother at the time of the census...
I did consider that perhaps Fanny Allen was looking after the children of a couple of others whose husbands were working in the same mine (perhaps as Fannys husband too?). That might explain why Fanny has no husband there at the time of the census and also why there is a Chegwidden child as well as the Williams one in Fannys household at the time. Only a thought though..

Mark

[clare_bear]

Possibly she was dead - but there could be other reasons why the daughter was not with mother at the time of the census...
I did consider that perhaps Fanny Allen was looking after the children of a couple of others whose husbands were working in the same mine (perhaps as Fannys husband too?). That might explain why Fanny has no husband there at the time of the census and also why there is a Chegwidden child as well as the Williams one in Fannys household at the time. Only a thought though..

Mark


I believe Fanny Allen took in a fair few children over the years...from what Carrie's daughter says, but what you say all makes sense.

The only reason I questioned whether Fanny Allen was just looking after Carrie at the time of the census was Carrie being listed as a 'boarder' rather than a 'visitor', but I'm sure that's a a bit tenuous and clutching at straws at this stage!

[clare_bear]

OK, I have come a bit late to this, but as I understand it we need to try and prove that the Florence WILLIAMS on the 1901 census, next door to Carrie, was her Mum?

It may be that we have to go backwards to go forwards.

On the 1901 census Florence was 34 and born in Middlesex

A marriage has been found in Helston in 1886 between a John WILLIAMS and a Florence Katherine PUNNETT

There was a birth registered in Edmonton, Middlesex Dec qtr 1867 (3a/201) of a Florence Susannah K PUNNETT

On the 1871 census RG10; Piece: 677; Folio: 73; Page: 16
John (corn dealer) and Alice PUNNETT are living in Commerce Place, Vauxhall with their children, including
Florence S K PUNNETT 3 b Enfield, Middlesex

Could Florence have named her eldest child after her mother?

Christanel found Alice WILLIAMS in 1891 living with her grandparents Benjamin and Eliza WILLIAMS and their daughter Sarah HODGE.

This looks to be the same couple in 1871
Piece: 2304; Folio: 78; Page: 7
and they have a son John as well as a daughter Sarah.

Benjamin WILLIAMS 49 aglab b. Mawgan
Eliza wife 43 b Slithians
Sarah 10
Anne 7
John 4
Children all born Mawgan

Right, frustration had led to a lengthy break from this, but I'm back with renewed enthusiasm thanks to a lovely forum member's email - I'm currently investigating a new avenue, which I shall share with you once I've received a certificate that may or may not help!

Anyway, to address the above findings from Sue....
I have looked into the possibility that Florence K Punnett and John Williams were the parents of our Carrie, but it seems we can rule them out. I have a census entry for them in 1911, with loads of children and very much still alive. So, I'm afraid this seems to rule them out (for a quick update: Carrie was 'lodging' with Fanny Allen in the 1901 census when was she was <1 yo and it is regarded in family folklore that her mum died either very soon after she was born or during childbirth). So another one ruled out!

Do you think it would be worth looking back into Fanny Allen's census history to see if any connections could be made?

Thanks

[amg2512]

Hi, Don't know if you've checked cornish records. I have found a Carrie Doris williams b March 1905 to a William Henry and Sophia Williams, in the Parish of Helston, any help?
Alison

[amg2512]

Hi again, just reread record. Carrie was baptised 20 Mar 1905 but born 8 Mar 1892 so perhaps a bit out on dates, but it is Helston, fathers profession listed as Sawyer.
Alison

[amg2512]

Hello again
My ancestors are from cornwall so have done a little digging, I have found 1901 census a CASSIE, it's not misstranscribed however her sister just above is called BESSIE so I can see how it happened. This Cassie is the Carrie I found, did she have a large Family, this Carrie is one of eleven?
Happy hunting
Alison

[clare_bear]

Hi Alison

Thanks very much for looking.


Hi, Don't know if you've checked cornish records. I have found a Carrie Doris williams b March 1905 to a William Henry and Sophia Williams, in the Parish of Helston, any help?
Alison


Hi again, just reread record. Carrie was baptised 20 Mar 1905 but born 8 Mar 1892 so perhaps a bit out on dates, but it is Helston, fathers profession listed as Sawyer.
Alison

From the little info we do have (well, at least what is suspected), Carrie was born in Nov 1900 (indeed we have the 1901 census entry for her at age about 6 months), and her father was supposedly called John (on her marriage certificate he is, anyway). Her father was a tin miner according to family sources, so I'm afraid this si unlikely to be her.


Hello again
My ancestors are from cornwall so have done a little digging, I have found 1901 census a CASSIE, it's not misstranscribed however her sister just above is called BESSIE so I can see how it happened. This Cassie is the Carrie I found, did she have a large Family, this Carrie is one of eleven?
Happy hunting
Alison

I think we have the census entry, but it is confusing as she was living with a lady named Fanny Allen who took in several lodgers. I wonder if Fanny got money for taking the kids in and that as she was very poor (a charwoman and stories of what Carrie had to eat as a child sugest they were incredibly poor) this helped her feed herself and her own children? There is no husband on the 1901 census. The only other thing 'known' about Carrie's family is that she had an older sister who was taken in by another family (Wearne's who were much more well off than Fanny Allen) and that her and Carrie never met again. It is thought her mum died during or soon after childbirth. All of this is unsubstantiated though.

Thanks for your interest and help, Alison, but it still looks like we're none the wiser!

[lesleys]

1901 Godolphin ROAD, HELSTON

Carrie Williams 6 months living as a boarder in the household of Fanny Allen as per your posting

on the previous page: (next door but one)

Florence Williams 34 Mar - living on own means B. Enfield Middx
Alice Williams 14 B Mawgan
Eliza Williams 11 b Helston
Frederick Williams 8 b Camborne
Eva Williams 2 b Helston
John Williams 1 b Helston

RG13; Piece: 2233; Folio: 61; Page: 11/12.

no guarantee this is her family but but looks promising

[lesleys]

and in 1891:
at Roskear Road Camborne:
John Williams 26 Carpenter b Helston
Florence K Williams 25
Frederick 2 (possibly died and a second Frederick born)
Elizth Mary 4 months (presumably Eliza)

RG12; Piece: 1850; Folio 128; Page 16

Alice is living with grandparents Benjamin 69 (Woodman) & Eliza Williams at County Cottage, Mawgan
RG12; Piece: 1840; Folio 117; Page 8

[lesleys]

Just realised others have already found most of this - i should read all the pages!

[clare_bear]

Just realised others have already found most of this - i should read all the pages!

I really appreciate the effort, anyway! Unfortunately, I seem to have ruled them out only a few posts previous to your as I found them together in the 1911 census and with other children - Carrie's mum is presumed to have been dead long before that.

Thanks anyway, and it's hardly surprising you missed previous posts, this is turning quite mammoth!

[amg2512]

Hello Clare
Have now read entire 8 pages and understand a little better. Just to go back to the "boarder" v lodger thoughts, I started researching my father's side of the tree on his death (he never talked about his mother and I knew, somehow, not to ask) and I found my Gmother's death and marriage cert. Of course her parents names were listed however I could find zilch info on the 1901 census a very clever lady on this site found her for me, it turns out that my grandmother was illegitimate and had actually been christened as Margaret (known to all of us and Marr/death cert as Jean) and her mother's maiden name. (This thread is under McCulloch in Scotland) know this doesn't help you but it's another avenue.

I only managed to clarify the above details by the DOB and the fact she was still in the same small village, all very obscure but fascinating.

Anyway, like the others I'm intrigued with this problem so will go and dig some more..

Alison

[clare_bear]

Hello Clare
Have now read entire 8 pages and understand a little better. Just to go back to the "boarder" v lodger thoughts, I started researching my father's side of the tree on his death (he never talked about his mother and I knew, somehow, not to ask) and I found my Gmother's death and marriage cert. Of course her parents names were listed however I could find zilch info on the 1901 census a very clever lady on this site found her for me, it turns out that my grandmother was illegitimate and had actually been christened as Margaret (known to all of us and Marr/death cert as Jean) and her mother's maiden name. (This thread is under McCulloch in Scotland) know this doesn't help you but it's another avenue.

I only managed to clarify the above details by the DOB and the fact she was still in the same small village, all very obscure but fascinating.

Anyway, like the others I'm intrigued with this problem so will go and dig some more..

Alison

That's a fascinating story too, Alison, and just goes to show that what you 'know' isn't necessarily correct! I'm beginning to become a little suspicious that there may be more to Carrie's parentage than meets the eye. After all, both my maternal grandparents were illegitimate and finding out more about that would have been impossible if my Mum hadn't known. Our family is not without interesting stories already!

[lesleys]

I too have become fascinated by your search - it makes a change from my own brickwalls.

I had a look at Fanny Allen - she apparently married Thomas Allen b 1845/6 Breage (found them in 1891 census) in 1890 and was Frances Pryor, parents John & Mary J of Wendron.

What is still to be explained is the two children with them : Annie (1881) and James H (1886)

In 1881 Thomas is unmarried and living as a boarder at Wendron with a Mary Williams. So perhaps they had the two children but couldnt afford to get married until later. I havent found the births yet.

in 1881 John Pryor has a stepson Thomas Williams (7) as well as the 20 yr old Fanny (Frances) so Fanny's stepmother was presumably previously married to a Williams.


And ---just found 1871 Fanny's mother was Eliza and Fanny's middle initial W so...
1857 John Pryor m Eliza WILLIAMS.. now need to find if there is a John somewhere in Eliza's family who fits the bill.

None of this gets us much closer to identifying Carrie's parents but there were obviously close links between the Allens and Williams's of Wendron.

[clare_bear]

I too have become fascinated by your search - it makes a change from my own brickwalls.

I had a look at Fanny Allen - she apparently married Thomas Allen b 1845/6 Breage (found them in 1891 census) in 1890 and was Frances Pryor, parents John & Mary J of Wendron.

What is still to be explained is the two children with them : Annie (1881) and James H (1886)

In 1881 Thomas is unmarried and living as a boarder at Wendron with a Mary Williams. So perhaps they had the two children but couldnt afford to get married until later. I havent found the births yet.

in 1881 John Pryor has a stepson Thomas Williams (7) as well as the 20 yr old Fanny (Frances) so Fanny's stepmother was presumably previously married to a Williams.


And ---just found 1871 Fanny's mother was Eliza and Fanny's middle initial W so...
1857 John Pryor m Eliza WILLIAMS.. now need to find if there is a John somewhere in Eliza's family who fits the bill.

None of this gets us much closer to identifying Carrie's parents but there were obviously close links between the Allens and Williams's of Wendron.


Wow, Lesley, you have been busy! Thank you ever so much, I think that Fanny Allen has as good a chance of revealing something interesting as any other line of enquiry, maybe even more so, so this is indeed fascinating. I shall try to get my head around this on the way home on the train. Thanks very much

[clare_bear]

I'm afraid it's me again and I still haven't sorted this particular brick wall! However, I do have a small development.....the downside is, some of my 'facts' are almost certainly 'lies'!

OK, so my g-grandmother's birth certificate has so far eluded me, and not all my 'facts' were in fact facts! Here's what I know:

My g-gran, Carrie Williams, was born on or around the 9th Nov 1900. She was on the 1901 census as being a 'boarder' at the home of Fanny Allen (in Helston, Cornwall) at age 6 months (so the birth date is about right) and down as Carrie Williams.

Recent information from Carrie's daughter (via Fanny Allen's daughter, I think) is that Fanny took in children whose 'mother's didn't want them'. So, in contrast to what was previously thought, it would seem that Carrie's mum (whose name I don't know) didn't die as was passed on, but gave Carrie up. This leads us to suspect that she was unmarried. It was previously thought that Carrie's father's name was John Williams and this was all we had to go on. Sadly, it would seem that John Williams would have been a very convenient name to make up as the father's name. We think Carrie's mum worked on a farm (Lower Carnebone) so it's possible Carrie's father was a farm hand there as well, or something.

Apart from the census info, the next official documentation is her marriage certificate, on which her name is Carrie Williams. She was married to James Harold Goldsworthy on 2nd September 1922 in Penzance. Her father is listed as John Williams (deceased), but that could be what she was told and probably isn't true at all! Presumably, if you got married in 1922 you needed some official documentation to prove who you were, just as you do now? Would she have had to show a birth certificate, or was it not too strict?

Her death certificate says she was born in Wendron, 9th Nov 1900, but I'm guessing this based on what is thought rather than anything officially documented.

So, once again, sorry for all the misleading family rumours, but the above is just the bare facts, that can be supported by evidence! I now have access to a subscription-based online resource, but I'm still drawing blanks!

There is a possible birth entry that could be her, but it was a birth registered in Devonport, Devon (a fair way from the far end of Cornwall at that time). Is it possible there was some sort of home for an unmarried mother to sneak away and have a baby there, and was that even likely given the year? Mind you, I guess we've always assumed that the family would have been poor, but maybe Carrie's mum wasn't poor at all and it would have been a great scandal? Who knows! The date for this entry is the Sept qtr 1900, but the birth date could be wrong (brings me back to how official info on the marriage certificate would have been).

Anyway, if anyone is still interested in helping me, I'd much appreciate it. I should probably order that certificate anyway and see if it gets me anywhere.

Thanks very much.
Clare

[christanel]

Hello again Clare
Just because we can here is the 1911 census.

Lower Town Helston Cornwall
Fanny Allen charwoman 50 Widow married 21 years born Wendron Children born alive 4, children still living 4.
Tommy Allen son 11 scholar born Helston
Carrie Williams Lodger 11 scholar born Wendron
Samuel Medlin 50 widower stone breaker for District Council. born Wendron.
Now I'll look for something/anything more following your latest post.
Christina

[MarkJ]

The information given at the time of marriage will be purely what the priest was told - the same applies to this day. There is no legal requirement to produce any proof of identity - I was certainly not asked to supply my birth certificate when I got married!

The name/occupation of the father - or even whether he was alive or dead - is purely what was stated. I would not base your theories on the info given - rather, use them as a basis for further research.

Some priests like to see some sort of supporting evidence - especially if they are not familiar with the bride or groom - but legally, there is no rule about actually *requiring* this.

Mark

[christanel]

There is a possible birth entry that could be her, but it was a birth registered in Devonport, Devon (a fair way from the far end of Cornwall at that time). Is it possible there was some sort of home for an unmarried mother to sneak away and have a baby there, and was that even likely given the year? Mind you, I guess we've always assumed that the family would have been poor, but maybe Carrie's mum wasn't poor at all and it would have been a great scandal? Who knows! The date for this entry is the Sept qtr 1900, but the birth date could be wrong (brings me back to how official info on the marriage certificate would have been).

Anyway, if anyone is still interested in helping me, I'd much appreciate it. I should probably order that certificate anyway and see if it gets me anywhere.

Thanks very much.
Clare

Discount this one Clare. Her parents are James and Carrie (Caroline on the 1911) James is a shipwright and Carrie - mum - was born in Australia! They are together in the 1911 census.
Christina

[clare_bear]

Hello again Clare
Just because we can here is the 1911 census.

Lower Town Helston Cornwall
Fanny Allen charwoman 50 Widow married 21 years born Wendron Children born alive 4, children still living 4.
Tommy Allen son 11 scholar born Helston
Carrie Williams Lodger 11 scholar born Wendron
Samuel Medlin 50 widower stone breaker for District Council. born Wendron.
Now I'll look for something/anything more following your latest post.
Christina

Thanks very much, Christina! That's awesome!


The information given at the time of marriage will be purely what the priest was told - the same applies to this day. There is no legal requirement to produce any proof of identity - I was certainly not asked to supply my birth certificate when I got married!

The name/occupation of the father - or even whether he was alive or dead - is purely what was stated. I would not base your theories on the info given - rather, use them as a basis for further research.

Some priests like to see some sort of supporting evidence - especially if they are not familiar with the bride or groom - but legally, there is no rule about actually *requiring* this.

Mark

And thanks for that, Mark - assume nothing! So, date of birth could be a guess too as it was only on the marriage certificate. I think I'll order that Devonport certificate and see if a leap of faith gets us anywhere!

However, you do need ID to get married now, at least as far as a civil ceremony is concerned (I guess the same could apply now as far as a vicar knowing the couple is concerned). I have a feeling I needed my birth certificate and passport/driving licence (civil ceremony).

Cheers
Clare

[clare_bear]

Discount this one Clare. Her parents are James and Carrie (Caroline on the 1911) James is a shipwright and Carrie - mum - was born in Australia! They are together in the 1911 census.
Christina

OK, I won't take that leap of faith!! Thanks very much for ruling that out, Christina - just saved me money and hope! It was a long shot!

Clare

[blue eyes]

Hi,

Would this birth registration be worth considering

1900

Crisilda Caroline J Williams
Jan/Feb/Mar
District Helston

[christanel]

Clare
see my last post re the Carrie at Davenport.
It is beginning to look more and more as if the Carrie Williams birth reg dist. St Austell Dec 1/4 1898 vol 5c page 92 is yours.
Helston is 27 miles SW of St Austell.
But I will check out these others in the 1901 first.
Clara Sept 1898 Helston
Charlotte Annie born and died March 1/4 1899
Clarice Alene March 1900
Christina

[clare_bear]

Hi,

Would this birth registration be worth considering

1900

Crisilda Caroline J Williams
Jan/Feb/Mar
District Helston

Thanks for that. I'd ruled out all these possibilities once before when I thought I had 'facts'! Now I'll have to re-investigate and consider most possibilties.



Clare
see my last post re the Carrie at Davenport.
It is beginning to look more and more as if the Carrie Williams birth reg dist. St Austell Dec 1/4 1898 vol 5c page 92 is yours.
Helston is 27 miles SW of St Austell.
But I will check out these others in the 1901 first.
Clara Sept 1898 Helston
Charlotte Annie born and died March 1/4 1899
Clarice Alene March 1900
Christina

I'll look into the St Austell one as it's possible that there was somewhere that Carrie's mum went off to have the baby in secret. I imagine it's too far away for it to be where her mum lived, but I think it's possible that she gave birth somewhere else.

I've just thought of something else.....

Fanny Allen who took Carrie in as a lodger took in children whose 'mother's didn't want them'. Now Fanny was very poor and must have had money from the parish to look after the children (that being a source of income for her to help feed her children too). Are there likely to be Parish records for this sort of thing? And if so, where would I start!

Cheers
Clare

[blue eyes]

Maybe something or not, living at the no 3 in 1901 is a Williams family head Florence Williams. They are on the census page before with son John on the same page as the Allens.

1901

[clare_bear]

Clare
It is beginning to look more and more as if the Carrie Williams birth reg dist. St Austell Dec 1/4 1898 vol 5c page 92 is yours.
Christina

Unfortunately, I think I've found a census entry for this Carrie:

Carrie Williams born abt 1899, aged 2 on census, St Blazey, Cornwall. St Blazey is in the district of St Austell.

[clare_bear]

Hi,

Would this birth registration be worth considering

1900

Crisilda Caroline J Williams
Jan/Feb/Mar
District Helston

You could be onto something here.

I can't find a 1901 census entry for a Crisilda Williams (no death entry seems to pop up in a quick search either) and I can only find one for a Caroline Williams in the area. This Caroline Williams was born in Mawnan rather than the Helston of the birth reg, so it's probably not the same one. This may be a lead.....

[christanel]

Back now the plasterer is gone.
There is also a death of a Carrie Williams June 1/4 1899 age 0 St Austell.
Crisilda does look promising.
Christina

[christanel]

Unfortunately, I think I've found a census entry for this Carrie:

Carrie Williams born abt 1899, aged 2 on census, St Blazey, Cornwall. St Blazey is in the district of St Austell.

Yep found her with her grandparents John and Mary.

As Carrie is 16 months old on 1901 (thank you enumerator) then Crisilda is definitely in the correct time frame.

We need someone to come and tell us about the Poor Laws. There are numerous posts on these forums I will see what I can find.
Christina

[christanel]

I put Cornwall Poor Laws into google and this was the first site I opened. Down the page to staff members and there is a Mr Wearne!
Now to read about the Poor Laws.

institutions.org.uk/workhouses/england/corn/helston_workhouse.

[clare_bear]

I put Cornwall Poor Laws into google and this was the first site I opened. Down the page to staff members and there is a Mr Wearne!
Now to read about the Poor Laws.

http://www.institutions.org.uk/workhouses/england/corn/helston_workhouse.htm

Thanks very much, Christina. I'll take a read later (when I've got some work done!!).

Clare

[clare_bear]

I put Cornwall Poor Laws into google and this was the first site I opened. Down the page to staff members and there is a Mr Wearne!
Now to read about the Poor Laws.

.institutions.org.uk/workhouses/england/corn/helston_workhouse[/url].

Wearne is quite a common name in the area, but you never know that may well be connected with the family rumour that Carrie had a sister who was taken in by a Wearne family! Equally, they may have made the whole story up as an elaborate ruse to cover the lies and shame!

I have no idea where to start looking for potential records that may help re: poor law/workhouses!

[clare_bear]

Hi,

Would this birth registration be worth considering

1900

Crisilda Caroline J Williams
Jan/Feb/Mar
District Helston


You could be onto something here.

I can't find a 1901 census entry for a Crisilda Williams (no death entry seems to pop up in a quick search either) and I can only find one for a Caroline Williams in the area. This Caroline Williams was born in Mawnan rather than the Helston of the birth reg, so it's probably not the same one. This may be a lead.....

Ok, as this appeared to be my only lead, I have eventually ordered the birth certificate, but I'm none the wiser!!

The info on the certificate is:

Crisilda Caroline James (!) Williams born on 14th Jan 1900 at Polengrain (? I can't really read it), Wendron.
- any ideas where 'Polengrain' is or what it actually says? It doesn't ring a bell!

Father: William Williams (a solicitor's clerk)
Mother: Ethel Williams formerly Williams - which suggests she's married, but as the names are the same could be misleading?

Informant: Ann Williams (the mark of rather than a sig), registered a month later on 17th Feb 1900


Any ideas where I should go from here to try to disprove/confirm a link to my Carrie Williams? I was hoping something clicked with the info I already had from family hearsay (father's name John, or born at Carnebone, for instance), but nothing does so I have no idea!

On her marriage certificate (Carrie's), her father was called John and was a tin miner, whereas William is a Solicitor's Clerk. Could the details on Carrie's marriage cert have all been made up (info she was given about her father)?


Any assistance would be much appreciated!

Cheers
Clare

[clare_bear]

Apparently there is a 'Pollengrain', a hamlet near Wendron! I now have the census entry for what could be Crisilda's family at Pollengrain. However, it doesn't look simple, so I'll try to get my head around it and then post again!

[blue eyes]

Hi,

The Florence Williams listed on the same census page as Carrie in 1901, is living in 1911 at Brixton Tce, Penrose Rd, Helston, husband is John Williams occ carpenter and builder. 3 more children since 1901.

[clare_bear]

Hi,

The Florence Williams listed on the same census page as Carrie in 1901, is living in 1911 at Brixton Tce, Penrose Rd, Helston, husband is John Williams occ carpenter and builder. 3 more children since 1901.

Hmmm, that's quite interesting, thanks blue eyes.

[clare_bear]

OK, advances have been made!

Crisilda Caroline James Williams is my Carrie! I have found no marriage, death or census entries for Crisilda and have been assured by a lady at the Cornwall FHS that it then must be her.

As Ethel Williams is her mother, Ann Williams registered the birth and it occurred in Pollengrain, some clever people on another forum found the 1901 census entry (with no Crisilda on it, as she is now Carrie and in Helston with Fanny Allen!). Ethel lives with her mum, Ann and her father William Pearce Williams. Her sister Loveday is also there, as are 2 children listed as Williams' grandchildren, Flossie and Ernest. Flossie has now been identified as Ethel's child with no father on the birth certificate, and she also had another son (no known father) who was fostered out, much like Crisilda/Carrie. Ernest's parentage is yet to be discovered! It would seem that Ethel was a girl of slightly dubious virtue!

Thanks for your help - this is developing into a fun branch of my family tree!

[christanel]

Great work clare_bear. Your persistence is paying off and thank you for keeping us up to date. Mind you it means I go back to the beginning each time
to re-acquaint myself with the thread. It has grown in to quite a story eh?
Christina

[Colin Rowledge]

Great work clare_bear. Your persistence is paying off and thank you for keeping us up to date. Mind you it means I go back to the beginning each time
to re-acquaint myself with the thread. It has grown in to quite a story eh?
Christina

Paticularly as I have an interest in the family name TRESIDDER

Colin

[clare_bear]

Great work clare_bear. Your persistence is paying off and thank you for keeping us up to date. Mind you it means I go back to the beginning each time
to re-acquaint myself with the thread. It has grown in to quite a story eh?
Christina

It certainly has! I can't remember what happened a few pages back, you're more dedicated than me, Christina, if you trawl back through all of it!

Clare