Record of Service

[Jillychris]

I sent off to Kew and received what I hope is the record of my brickwall George Warry's service.

His service ended on the same day my George died (information came from a photo-copy of the Family Bible). So I assumed before I received this information that he is my GGGrandfather.

This is the last Ship etc on this document

11 Rosamund 31 Oct 51 CAGd (what does CAGd mean) 4 Aug 52 (date of death by FB) DD (does this mean date of death or something else?) then there is an amount of money
underneath it says
G 22nd Dec 1852 then another amount of money.

It also says he came from Chard, which is where I was stuck because he was in the 1841 Census (Devon) as being born out of county, but I didn't know where.

He started as a Boy in 1826 then a few months later was an ord (ordinary seaman I presume). Then an able (able seaman) then Chatop (?) then an able then a CMast (?) then an able then a CMt then a Cap then 2Mr then it looks like Captain Master then it is this CAGd. Does this mean he made it to Captain?

Any help on this especially the meaning of DD would be very much appreciated.

Regards
Jill

[Geoffers]

11 Rosamund 31 Oct 51 CAGd (what does CAGd mean) 4 Aug 52 (date of death by FB) DD (does this mean date of death or something else?) then there is an amount of money
underneath it says
G 22nd Dec 1852 then another amount of money.If you can, scan the difficult bits and post on a web-site so that as many as possible can see what they can make of it.If can't do that, then you can scan the document and send it as an e-mail attachment I'll see if I can make sense of it.


Any help on this especially the meaning of DD would be very much appreciated.That's the easy bit

DD= Dishcharged Dead

There's sometimes a brief explanation with DD, - e.g. 'fell from aloft', 'drowned, fell overboard' etc.
Geoffers

[peter nicholl]

Hi Jill

DD as per Geoffers answer.
G may well be Gratuity.
The references to ChaTop, CMast, etc are to Captain of the Top, Captain of the Mast, there is also Captain of the Hold,etc. They were not officers, but more like foremen in a factory. Depending on the size of the ship there would be one or more per Watch with specific duties for that part of the ship. There were various reasons why sailors popped in and out of the position, eg discipline.
If you don't know, Chrd is just in the Somerset side of the border with Devon. We have friends who live in Devon, but have a Chard phone code.
Do you have a Death Certificate? I ask because there is a reference to a HMS Rosamond (seems to have also been known as Rosamund and Fair Rosamo/und) as being off St Pedro, Belize at the time in question. If he died in Home waters, maybe CA Gd stands for Coast Guard.
HTH
Peter

[Jillychris]

Thank you Geoffers

I am now sure this is my GGGrandfather. Not many George Warrey's could die on the 4th August 1852 could they? There wasn't any explanation with it so I do not know how he died unfortunately just the letters DD. Which as you say mean Discharged dead.

You helped me find him in the first place by suggesting to someone else to try the name and ADM29 so I can't thank you enough.

Also Thank you Peter

I didn't think he could be a Captain, but I didn't understand the shortened versions. I didn't know they existed, but I knew about able seaman and ordinary seaman you learn at lot with this hobby.

I don't have a death certificate, but I will look now. I have looked for Warrey/Warry deaths at sea but never found anything. His Sons and Grandsons were mariners too.

Thank you both once again.

Kindest Regards
Jill

[peter nicholl]

Hi Jill

Thinking about it a bit more, I have my doubts about the CACg having something to do with Coast Guards. I have looked at a record I have from 1849 and the columns seem to cover, from the Left Hand Side:
Ship's Name;
the next column is narrow and has only one entry at the top a number which, maybe by coincidence, is the year of his entry;
Date of joining;
Rating, Ord, AB, etc;
Date of discharge from ship's company;
The next one is illegible, is this where CACg appears?; and
The next ones seem to indicate length of service for each rating/ship in years, months, weeks and days.

If you can get to Kew, or engage someone to do it for you, then you may find answers in the following references:
ADM53/4031 Rosamond, Ship's Log 29 March 1852 to 13 september 1852 and
ADM38/8894 Rosamond Ship's Muster 27 October 1851 to 1 December 1852.

The ADM38 will have details of all crew members during the time in question and may also include Description Papers which is a mine of information and not only includes physical description and place of birth, but also "Usual place of Resw and has only one entry at the top a number which, maybe by coincidence, is the year of his entry;
Date of joining;
Rating, Ord, AB, etc;
Date of discharge from ship's company;
The next one is illegible, is this where CACg appears?; and
The next ones seem to indicate length of service for each rating/ship in years, months, weeks and days.

If you can get to Kew, or engage someone to do it for you, then you may find answers in the following references:
ADM53/4031 Rosamond, Ship's Log 29 March 1852 to 13 september 1852 and
ADM38/8894 Rosamond Ship's Muster 27 October 1851 to 1 December 1852.

The ADM38 will have details of all crew members during the time in question and may also include Description Papers which is a mine of information and not only includes physical description and place of birth, but also "Usual place of Residence"

Peter
Cont'd

[peter nicholl]

Hi Jill

Please ignore the middle bit of the above between "If you can get to Kew .." and ".. weeks and days", it should make sense.

I also found a reply from the RN Museum "For example, in a fifth-rate ship of 36 guns and a complement of 250 men, four 'captains' to the waist, two to the afterguard and two to the forecastle".

HTH
Peter

[Geoffers]

11 Rosamund 31 Oct 51 CAGd (what does CAGd mean)
Please ignore if you've already considered the possibility, but:

could the first letter possibly by 'G' - is the letter A written as the modern form, or like a lower case a, just written large? If this is a possibility, could it actually read 'GCGd'? which might conceivably stand for G(ood) C(onduct) G(rante)d??

Geoffers

[Jillychris]

Hi Peter

Thank you for your reply.

I am hoping to visit Kew sometime this year, and I will certainly be looking up the two references you gave me.

On George's record the CAGd bit is in the ratings column, but it was just written across as follows:

11 Rosamund 31 Oct 51 CAGd 4 Aug 52 DD

I don't think it was meant to be in any column.

I thought the last column was money earned, but it didn't add up correctly at the bottom, if it is days served I have 1 year 12 months 2 weeks and 4 days and 3 years 12 months 2 weeks and 4 days would they have put 12 months as it made a year back then?

I have two of these records one goes to the day he died, but from 1847 onwards it is different handwriting the other only goes to 1847 and is all in the same handwriting they are both the same except for the last column some of the numbers are slightly different I don't know why there are two when they practically say the same?

These are very big photcopies, but I am going to take them to the shop to get them downsized to A4, if you want me to scan them to you (or you Geoff) I can.

Thank you also for the reply from the RN Museum it is a good explanation of the captain bit in the ratings column.

Regards
Jill

[Jillychris]

Hi Geoffers

The A in the CAGd is a lower case A but written the same size as the upper case C and G the G is underneath with a date 22nd Dec 1852, 4 months after he died on the right there are numbers which (as I said to Peter) I thought was money earned, but the numbers don't add up properly. As I said to Peter I can scan them to you if you would like to see them.

Thanks again for your help.

Regards
Jill

[Geoffers]

As I said to Peter I can scan them to you if you would like to see them.
By all means give it a go, it's far easier to see than to expalin. I can't promise owt, but click on my name and send it as an e-mail attachment and I'll browse my reference books over a cuppa.

Geoffers

[Geoffers]

If anyone is following this thread and wonders the outcome, Jill has scanned the records and sent them to me. Having looked at the records, the phrase and its context, I believe it refers to:

CAG or CAGd = Captain of the Afterguard.

A Petty Officer (who would need to be very experienced) who supervised the afterguard. The afterguard consiting of crew who were landsmen or ordinary seamen (who were frequently considered to be wasters) who manned the quarter deck and worked the after-sails.

Geoffers

[peter nicholl]

Geoffers, Well done you, but I do believe that such "Captains" were not Petty Officers per se but ratings, as per the RN museum reply.

Jill, Thanks for raising the query. In looking through my records for an answer I have answered my own query on another thread, namely the Comment "FE" seems to mean First Entry. Also I had puzzled over "DSq" and have found out it means "Discharged Sick Quarters", off the ship and into Haslar or Stonehouse.
I too have So many years,12 months, so many weeks and days. I wonder if they used a 4 week month? I've just spot checked two entries and it looks as though they did use a 4 week month.
Regards

Peter

[Geoffers]

Geoffers, Well done you, but I do believe that such "Captains" were not Petty Officers per se but ratings, as per the RN museum reply.
I'd stand corrected by the RN museum!

The books I've been browsing suggest that they were PO ranks - at least by the mid-19th century.

My mind must be going 'cos I didn't think to check Paul Benyon's web-site first off - here again suggests that they were rated as POs from 1853-1860 at least
http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/RN/Pay_and_Condns/Pay_1860_Ratings.htm

Geoffers

[peter nicholl]

It was only after I was curled up with a mug of Horlicks that I realised that I hadn't included the relevant part of the Museum's reply, namely "Although these are grand titles, the men assigned to these posts were in fact ratings.". I am not sure otherwise how they moved from AB to "Captain" to AB to "Captain" etc with such apparent ease.
However, I think your mention of 1853 is pertinent for 2 reasons, first that the men in question finished their Service prior to 1853 and second that I believe that 1853 was when Continuous Service Records came into being. It may well be that there were other significant changes going on at the same time.

If you are into nautical terms in the early 19th Century, try Googling "Lever: A Dictionary of Sea Terms, 1808", some real cases of "I didn't know that":)

Peter

[Geoffers]

However, I think your mention of 1853 is pertinent for 2 reasons, first that the men in question finished their Service prior to 1853 and second that I believe that 1853 was when Continuous Service Records came into being.
Yes, fair point


If you are into nautical terms in the early 19th Century, try Googling "Lever: A Dictionary of Sea Terms, 1808", some real cases of "I didn't know that"
I shall try that shortly. In case you haven't seen it and as you have a nautical interest, you might keep a look out for Admrial W H Smyth's 'The Sailor's Word-Book' which has been reprinted in paperback - 744 pages for under 10 quid.

Geoffers

[Jillychris]

Hi Peter and Geoffers

Just to let you know I have been to Kew George Warrey died in a Hospital in Jamaica of a Fever.

Not as juicy as I had hoped, but at least I know now.

Thank you both once again for your help.

Kindest Regards
Jill