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ziksby
24-10-2004, 11:05 AM
Tomorrow, 25th October 2004, marks the 150th anniversary of the Charge of the Light Brigade.

"At ten minutes past eleven, our Light Cavalry Brigade advanced. As they rushed towards the front, the Russians opened on them from the guns in the redoubt on the right with volleys of musketry and rifles. They swept proudly past, glittering in the morning sun in all the pride and splendour of war .... A more fearful spectacle was never witnessed than by those who beheld their countrymen rushing to the arms of death. At the distance of 1200 yards the whole line of the enemy belched forth, from thirty iron mouths, a flood of smoke and flame, through which hissed the deadly balls. .... With courage too great almost for credence they were breaking their way through the columns which enveloped them, when there took place an act of atrocity without parallel in the modern warfare of civilised nations. The Russian gunners, when the storm of cavalry passed, returned to their guns,and poured murderous volleys of grape and canister on the mass of struggling men and horses. At thirty-five minutes past eleven not a British soldier, except the dead and dying, was left in front of these bloody Muscovite guns."

Eyewitness account by William Russell, The Times correspondent

Guy Etchells
24-10-2004, 12:24 PM
I would not put too much stock in the accounts of the charge of the Light Brigade, apparently the casualty lists show a complely different account of the charge in that there were comparatively few dead and injured from that encounter.
There has recently been issued a history based on the evidence and participents experiences and this reveals a different account.
For example it was possible to see cannon shot coming towards you and manoeuvre out of its path due to the slow speed of such shot.
Makes you think.
Cheers
Guy

ziksby
24-10-2004, 1:17 PM
You're right, of course Guy, .... "never believe anything you read in the newspapers" ... even if its The Times and its most respected Victorian correspondent, William Russell, whose readers hung on his every word. He covered many wars including The Crimean, The Indian Mutiny, American Civil War, the Franco-Prussian, the Zulu .. probably the greatest war correspondent of all time.

Peggy
06-02-2005, 10:53 PM
Speaking of the Charge, I have a book which lists the participants, by regiment. There is some biographical information for some names. Not easy doing lookups; but if someone has a name, preferably accompanied by rank and regiment, AND good reason to think that the man was in the Charge, I'll give it a try.

Peggy

revsandie
29-06-2005, 5:54 PM
Hi Peggy

If you are still willing to have a look, my 3 x Gt Grandfather David McInnes was in the right regiment at the right time to have been in the charge, and I'd be really interested to know if he gets a mention. He was in the 13th Light Dragoons and was either a private or a Corporal at the time - I'm not sure of the date of his promotion. The regiment has him listed as 1425 Pte David McInnes, and have confirmed that at a later date he was promoted again to Sergeant. They couldn't tell me if he was in the charge, but he was awarded the Crimean Medal with clasps for Inkermann, Balaklava, Alma and Sebastopol so he was certainly around.

Otherwise, could you tell me the name of the book and I can try and get hold of it?

Thanks

Sandie



Peggy wrote "if someone has a name, preferably accompanied by rank and regiment, AND good reason to think that the man was in the Charge, I'll give it a try. "

Peggy
29-06-2005, 7:51 PM
Hi Sandie,

Found him. His name is not listed in full caps, so he was not known to have ridden in the Charge. That doesn't mean that he didn't; no one made a list at the time. He was a Private on 25 Oct 1854.

Enlisted: 17th January 1851
Promoted: Corporal
Sergeant: 1st October 1855
Medal: Crimea (A.B.I.S.). New medal granted 13th August 1856.

The clasps are for the Alma, Balaclava, Inkerman, and Sebastopol. Indicate the recipient's presence at the engagement.

Peggy

revsandie
29-06-2005, 9:47 PM
Thanks so much Peggy!

Sandie

Denmark
11-07-2005, 10:09 AM
Hi Peggy, I have only just found this website and hope you are still willing to look up members of the "charge".

My g.grandfather William Foulkes was in the Royal Dragoon Guards. His details are No. 1420 PT. W.Foulks (No e ) 5th Dragoon Guards. He received the Crimea Medal, and Turkish Crimea Medal. These medals are on display at the Dragoon Guards Museum in York, I believe.

I would be interested to know if his name is listed in the Charge.

Thanks. Maureen (Denmark)

Peggy
13-07-2005, 5:10 AM
Hi Maureen,

Sorry for the delay. Due to power outages (thanks to Hurricane Dennis), and computer problems (thanks to Windoze.)

The regiments listed in the book as participating in the Charge are:

The Fourth Light Dragoons
The Eighth Hussars
The Eleventh Hussars
The Thirteenth Light Dragoons
The Seventeenth Lancers

Seems to me they kept changing the names/numbers, so if one of those was a/k/a the Royal Dragoon Guards or 5th Dragoon Guards, just let me know.

Peggy

Denmark
13-07-2005, 3:13 PM
Hi Peggy,

I am not sure which other name the regiment would have had. All the details in letters I have refer to the 5th Royal Dragoon Guards, or the 5th Royal Inniskilling Dragoon Guards. I have a copy of a sketch showing the Charge of the Heavy Brigade and a Brigadier-General The Hon.James Yorke Scarlett commanding The Heavy Cavalry Brigade. On the sketch it shows the positions of:
4th Dragoon Guards
5th Dragoon Guards
2nd Sqn. Inniskillings
Scots Greys
The Royals

All the above seem to come under the banner of The Heavy Brigade and all took part in the charge.

Most of this is double dutch to me and does not answer the question as to whether William Foulkes was actually there.

Thanks anyway for your help Peggy.

Stuman
13-07-2005, 5:31 PM
There may be a little confusion caused by the fact that there was an unsuccessful charge by the light brigade and a succesful charge by the heavy brigade. The heavy brigade charge was in the same general area but was not against the entrenched Russian cannons. Try a Google search for the whole battle.

Stuart

Peggy
13-07-2005, 8:52 PM
Hi Maureen & Stuart,

I wouldn't mind having an ancestor who was in that charge of the Heavy Brigade! Uphill and against overwhelming odds, wasn't it? Tennyson wrote about it too, but the poem deserves (IMO) to be little known. (Btw, has anyone read Kipling's poem about survivors of the Light Brigade going hungry while school children recite "Honour the Light Brigade"?)

Perhaps some resident military expert will remind us exactly what is meant by Light and Heavy in the context? Been a while since I read Woodham-Smith's book, and Flashman at the Charge.

Peggy

Guy Etchells
13-07-2005, 10:53 PM
Light Cavalry (Hussars) were skirmishers used to attack retreating infantry and to scout ahead of the army. Lightly armoured on smaller nimble horses.
Heavy Cavalry (Dragoons) were the shock troops or tanks of the time used to attack the opposing army and cut swaths through their lines. Heavily armoured on heavy horses
Cheers
Guy

Peggy
14-07-2005, 12:23 AM
Thanks Guy.

Heavies ride bigger horses. Ok. But could you say a bit more about "armoured" in 1854 terms? How armoured? For a second there I was picturing medieval metal suits. :) Does it refer to a difference in weaponry/other equipment carried? Or were the designations a holdover from the days of those metal suits? Or . . . ?

Peggy

Denmark
14-07-2005, 7:51 AM
Hi Peggy,

I have emailed you a copy of the sketch I have of the "Charge"

Maureen

Lawrence W. Crider
04-06-2006, 6:55 PM
There seems to be a great deal of confusion here regarding the charges of Oct 25th. The Heavy Brigade, made up of:
1. the Fourth Dragoon Guards
2. the Fifth Dragoon Guards
3. the First Dragoons
4. the 2nd Dragoons
5. the 6th Dragoons
charged a major contingent of Russian cavalry (several times their number) at around 9:00 am, and subsequently routed them.

Two or so hours later, the Light Brigade, made up of:
1. the Fourth Light Dragoons
2. the Eight Hussars
3. the Eleventh Hussars
4. the 13th Light Dragoons
5. the 17th Lancers
mistakenly charged the guns at the east end of the North Valley. Although they arrived at the guns (despite being fired at from three sides (front, left and right), they were not supported and were forced to then retreat. Roughly 1/3 of their number were killed or captured and about 2/3 of their horses lost, making them effectively cease to exist as a force to contend with.

As to your query re W. Foulks of the 5th Dragoon Guards:

His name does not appear on the Muster Rolls of that regiment for the period of September to December 1854, which would make it almost certain that he was not in the Crimea at the time of the Heavy Brigade Charge. I was unable to find his name listed on the Medal Rolls for that Regiment, however, I was using the CD-ROM from Yesteryears Genealogy, and some pages are difficult, if not impossible to read. Perhaps a query to the Regimental museum would be in order.

Lawrence W. Crider
Author, In Search of the Light Brigade
Editor, the War Correspondent

janered
16-09-2006, 3:31 PM
Having just found this site and seeing Peggy's offer of looking up relatives in her special book- I wonder if that is still possible.

I have a relative John Turner (b1821 Isleham Cambridgeshire)
who was a Colour Sergeant in the 11th Hussars
and I was wondering if he was in the charge of the light brigade.

On the 1851 his wife says he is a marine but not at home, but they are living in Manor St which is opposite Brompton Barracks, Gillingham.
On 1861 in Chatham.(moving to Hounslow by 1864)
On the 1871 census he is listed as a chelsea pensioner living at Militia cottage, High St, Hounslow.
On the 1881 census he is now living at 11th hussars barracks, Hounslow.

I would like to know if he was present at C of LB and was he injured, is that why he is a chelsea pensioner (as it seems quite young)?
Also does the census fit in with the 11th Hussars movements?
Also what do Colour Sergeants do?

Any help would be gratefully recieved
Thanks
jane

Peggy
16-09-2006, 4:09 PM
Hi Jane,

I don't see a John Turner listed in the book with the 11th Hussars.

The other questions are over my head, but I'll be interested in seeing answers from those better informed.

Regards,

Peggy

Geoffers
17-09-2006, 11:54 AM
I have a relative John Turner (b1821 Isleham Cambridgeshire)
who was a Colour Sergeant in the 11th Hussars

On the 1851 his wife says he is a marine
This seems a bit of a contradiction. Have you obtained his service record?


I would like to know if he was present at C of LB and was he injured, is that why he is a chelsea pensioner (as it seems quite young)?
Men joined the army young, so finding pensioners in their 40s is not unusual.

Geoffers

Lawrence W. Crider
19-09-2006, 3:13 AM
If you have the regiment right, then John Turner did not serve in that regiment during the Crimean War. You mention he was a marine in 1851. He may have transferred to the 11th Hussars after the Crimean War. There was a John Turner who served in the 8th Hussars . . .

Below is a list of men with the last name of Turner serving in the Light Brigade during the Crimean War. I include this because sometimes people
went by their middle name. As you can see, the only verified Chargers in this list were Edward in the 8th Hussars and George of the 11th Hussars. Note that some of these could not be your forbear as they died much earlier than he did.

☼ Turner, Pte Henry, (1263), 4th LD (p64)
Enl 04-46. To Scut 04-04 & fr Scut 05-11-55 [55-2-5]. W/ Svc Trps entire period [54-1 to 56-1]. Medal [204] w/ A [204], B [229], I [204], & S [222] Clasps.

► Turner, Pte Samuel, (685), 4th LD (p64)
Bn in Worcester [54-3-20]. Enl 06-11-32 [54-3-20]. Prior Occ: Weaver [54-3-20]. Died 08-31-54 [54-3-5] at Varna of cholera [54-3-20]. DB Charge. Not on MRs, though embarked, died enrt to Crimea.

☼ Turner, Pte William, (1115), 4th LD (p64)
Enl 1841. Abs all 3 Mstrs as Batman to Cpt Warde, RM, at the Mil Acad at Sandhurst [54-1-5] & thru 05-31-54 [54-2-5]. W/ Svc Trps entire period [54-1 to 56-1]. Medal [204] w/ A [204], B [229], I [204], & S [222] Clasps.

☼ Turner, Pte Edward, (1238), 8th H (p119)
Bn in Croydon [54-4-20], Surrey. Enl 10-16-52 [54-4-20]. Prior Occ: Baker [54-4-20]. Abd Shooting Star fr 04-25
& thru 2nd Mstr; Outpost Duty 3rd Mstr [54-2-5]. Rode in Charge; killed [54-4-20][Not on CR]. Medal [283/288] w/
A [283/288], B [300], & S [312] Clasps.

☼ Turner, Pte Henry, (725), 8th H (p119)
Enl 1841. At Trowbridge 1st Mstr; abs 02-14-54 [54-1-5]. At Plymouth 1st Mstr; abd Wilson Kennedy fr 05-02
& thru 2nd Mstr; Outpost Duty 3rd Mstr [54-2-5]. At Scut 2nd & 3rd Mstrs [54-4-5]. Died 01-02-55 at Scut [55-5-5].
Medal [283/288] w/ I [283/288] & S [312] Clasps.

☼ Turner, Pte John, (1370), 8th H
Bn in Manchester [56-4-24]. Enl 07-14-54 [56-4-24]. Prior Occ: Clerk [56-4-24]. Fr England 07-14; shows on Svc
Mstrs fr 07-24-55 [55-3-5]. AA Charge. Ds 08-31-56 fr Dundalk [56-4-24]. Medal [292] w/ S [312] Clasp. LN looks like
“Twiner” [55D-1-5].

☼ Turner, Pte t the Mil Acad at Sandhurst [54-1-5] & thru 05-31-54 [54-2-5]. W/ Svc Trps entire period [54-1 to 56-1]. Medal [204] w/ A [204], B [229], I [204], & S [222] Clasps.

☼ Turner, Pte Edward, (1238), 8th H (p119)
Bn in Croydon [54-4-20], Surrey. Enl 10-16-52 [54-4-20]. Prior Occ: Baker [54-4-20]. Abd Shooting Star fr 04-25
& thru 2nd Mstr; Outpost Duty 3rd Mstr [54-2-5]. Rode in Charge; killed [54-4-20][Not on CR]. Medal [283/288] w/
A [283/288], B [300], & S [312] Clasps.

☼ Turner, Pte Henry, (725), 8th H (p119)
Enl 1841. At Trowbridge 1st Mstr; abs 02-14-54 [54-1-5]. At Plymouth 1st Mstr; abd Wilson Kennedy fr 05-02
& thru 2nd Mstr; Outpost Duty 3rd Mstr [54-2-5]. At Scut 2nd & 3rd Mstrs [54-4-5]. Died 01-02-55 at Scut [55-5-5].
Medal [283/288] w/ I [283/288] & S [312] Clasps.

☼ Turner, Pte John, (1370), 8th H
Bn in Manchester [56-4-24]. Enl 07-14-54 [56-4-24]. Prior Occ: Clerk [56-4-24]. Fr England 07-14; shows on Svc
Mstrs fr 07-24-55 [55-3-5]. AA Charge. Ds 08-31-56 fr Dundalk [56-4-24]. Medal [292] w/ S [312] Clasp. LN looks like
“Twiner” [55D-1-5].

☼ Turner, Pte George, (1358), 11th H (p184)
Bn in Burslem [54-4-20], Staffordshire. Enl 09-25-47 [54-4-20]. Prior Occ: Crate Maker ? [54-4-20] or Bootmaker.
At sea 2nd Mstr; at Varna 3rd Mstr [54-2-5]. Rode in Charge; severely wounded [CR 37 as “W / D”; a cannonball
severed his left arm at the shoulder [LS 132]. Died 10-28-54 on voyage to Scutari [54-4-5, 20]. Wife, residence not
known [55-1 & 2-20]. Medal [394/401] w/ A [394/401], B [410], & S [421] Clasps.

Turner, Pte Charles, (2153), 13th LD
Enl 01-28-56 in Liverpool at age 21 [56D-1-7]. DNE. Not on MRs.

► Turner, Pte William John, (1546), 13th LD
Bn in Bristol [56-3-24]. Enl 01-24-54 in Westminster at age 18 [54-1-7]. Prior Occ: Clerk [56-3-24]. To Dep at
Birmingham 04-01-54 [54-2-24]. W/ sick horse at Birmingham 06-07 to 06-30-54 [54D-2-5]. Prom fr Pte to Sgt [55D-
2-3, 5]. To Scut 06-17-55 [55D-2-3]. Joined fr Gen Dep 10-31-55, at Scut 2nd & 3rd Mstrs [55-4-3] & all 3 Mstrs [56-1-
3]. Dem to Pte 04-01-56 by Ct Martial [56-1-3]. Dc by purch 09-14-56 at Ballincolig [56-3-24]. Not on MRs, though
embkd, never arrived in Crimea.

☼ Turner, Pte David, (1456), 17th L
Abs 08-11 & 08-12; to Svc TrGeorge, (1358), 11th H (p184)
Bn in Burslem [54-4-20], Staffordshire. Enl 09-25-47 [54-4-20]. Prior Occ: Crate Maker ? [54-4-20] or Bootmaker.
At sea 2nd Mstr; at Varna 3rd Mstr [54-2-5]. Rode in Charge; severely wounded [CR 37 as “W / D”; a cannonball
severed his left arm at the shoulder [LS 132]. Died 10-28-54 on voyage to Scutari [54-4-5, 20]. Wife, residence not
known [55-1 & 2-20]. Medal [394/401] w/ A [394/401], B [410], & S [421] Clasps.

Turner, Pte Charles, (2153), 13th LD
Enl 01-28-56 in Liverpool at age 21 [56D-1-7]. DNE. Not on MRs.

► Turner, Pte William John, (1546), 13th LD
Bn in Bristol [56-3-24]. Enl 01-24-54 in Westminster at age 18 [54-1-7]. Prior Occ: Clerk [56-3-24]. To Dep at
Birmingham 04-01-54 [54-2-24]. W/ sick horse at Birmingham 06-07 to 06-30-54 [54D-2-5]. Prom fr Pte to Sgt [55D-
2-3, 5]. To Scut 06-17-55 [55D-2-3]. Joined fr Gen Dep 10-31-55, at Scut 2nd & 3rd Mstrs [55-4-3] & all 3 Mstrs [56-1-
3]. Dem to Pte 04-01-56 by Ct Martial [56-1-3]. Dc by purch 09-14-56 at Ballincolig [56-3-24]. Not on MRs, though
embkd, never arrived in Crimea.

☼ Turner, Pte David, (1456), 17th L
Abs 08-11 & 08-12; to Svc Trps 09-03-55 [55D-3-5]. Joined Regt 09-28-55 fr Brighton [55-3-5]. AA Charge. Rep to Scut Dep
01-19; Inv fr Scut 02-01-56 [56-1-5]. Not on MRs though served in Crimea.

☼ Turner, Pte Henry, (1299), 17th L (p300)
Bn in Surrey [56-4-24]. Enl 08-23-54 in Brighton at age 18 [54D-3-7]. Prior Occ: Grocer [56-4-24]. AWOL 03-03 to
03-14-55; Mil Conf 03-20 to 03-30-55 [55D-1-5]. To Svc Trps 05-28-55 [55D-2-5]. Joined Regt 06-20-55 [55-2-5]. AA Charge.
To Scut Dep 07-09-55; inv 07-31-55 fr Scut to England [55-3-5]. Inv 12-15-56 at Dublin [56-4-24]. Medal [507] w/ S [518] Clasp.

By 1871, your John Turner would have been 50 years old. The life expectancy was much less at that time, and many soldiers were old before their time due to hard living conditions, hard work, and insufficient diet . . . so a Chelsea pensioner at 50 would not at all be surprising.

For future reference, if you want to know if a man is generally accepted to have charged in the Light Brigade, you can download a PDF file at my website
(lawrencecrider.com) of the known chargers to date, and print out a hard copy for ready reference.

Cheers,

Lawrence W. Crider
Author, In Search of the Light Brigade
Editor, The War Correspondent: the journal of the Crimean War Research Society
%0ps 09-03-55 [55D-3-5]. Joined Regt 09-28-55 fr Brighton [55-3-5]. AA Charge. Rep to Scut Dep
01-19; Inv fr Scut 02-01-56 [56-1-5]. Not on MRs though served in Crimea.

☼ Turner, Pte Henry, (1299), 17th L (p300)
Bn in Surrey [56-4-24]. Enl 08-23-54 in Brighton at age 18 [54D-3-7]. Prior Occ: Grocer [56-4-24]. AWOL 03-03 to
03-14-55; Mil Conf 03-20 to 03-30-55 [55D-1-5]. To Svc Trps 05-28-55 [55D-2-5]. Joined Regt 06-20-55 [55-2-5]. AA Charge.
To Scut Dep 07-09-55; inv 07-31-55 fr Scut to England [55-3-5]. Inv 12-15-56 at Dublin [56-4-24]. Medal [507] w/ S [518] Clasp.

By 1871, your John Turner would have been 50 years old. The life expectancy was much less at that time, and many soldiers were old before their time due to hard living conditions, hard work, and insufficient diet . . . so a Chelsea pensioner at 50 would not at all be surprising.

For future reference, if you want to know if a man is generally accepted to have charged in the Light Brigade, you can download a PDF file at my website
(lawrencecrider.com) of the known chargers to date, and print out a hard copy for ready reference.

Cheers,

Lawrence W. Crider
Author, In Search of the Light Brigade
Editor, The War Correspondent: the journal of the Crimean War Research Society

janered
19-09-2006, 8:17 PM
Thank you to everyone who tried to help.

Unfortunately the only info I have is from the census returns and thus is only of limited use - ie trust the info given and HOPE!!

I am amazed at how much info is around. And hats off to all you who are willing to share and educate us novices!

Thanks again
Jane

Blain
27-09-2006, 10:56 PM
Also what do Colour Sergeants do?


Colour sgts are the same rank as Staff Sgts, it is the rank above Sgt, there is no difference in the rank, it is just that some regiments call them "colour", some call them "staff", the blues and royals I believe call the same rank "Corporal of Horse"

Emma C
11-10-2008, 3:27 PM
Hello.

I have no information on the 11th Hussars and i have just discovered that an ancestor of mine was a Private on the 1881 census, stationed at '11th Hussars Hounslow Barracks' and wondered if anyone had any information on this or where i could find it.

His name is William Howe from Balsham, Cambridgeshire.

Many thanks

Emma C

Geoffers
11-10-2008, 7:01 PM
Welcome to the B-G forums


I have no information on the 11th Hussars and i have just discovered that an ancestor of mine was a Private on the 1881 census, stationed at '11th Hussars Hounslow Barracks' and wondered if anyone had any information on this or where i could find it.

A good place to start might be your chap's service record which will be held at The National Archives (TNA), Kew - they have loads of research guides on how to research soldiers, click on this link (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/researchguidesindex.asp#b)and look at the guides prefixes 'British Army'.

There 's a sticky thread on the Military - Army forum (http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35481)on how to search TNA's catalogue to try and identify in which file his record may be held.

Emma C
12-10-2008, 9:59 AM
Many thanks for that, i will try and find out what i can

Lawrence W. Crider
13-10-2008, 1:24 PM
Hi Peggy,

I am not sure which other name the regiment would have had. All the details in letters I have refer to the 5th Royal Dragoon Guards, or the 5th Royal Inniskilling Dragoon Guards. I have a copy of a sketch showing the Charge of the Heavy Brigade and a Brigadier-General The Hon.James Yorke Scarlett commanding The Heavy Cavalry Brigade. On the sketch it shows the positions of:
4th Dragoon Guards
5th Dragoon Guards
2nd Sqn. Inniskillings
Scots Greys
The Royals

All the above seem to come under the banner of The Heavy Brigade and all took part in the charge.

Most of this is double dutch to me and does not answer the question as to whether William Foulkes was actually there.

Thanks anyway for your help Peggy.

William Faulks was in the 5th Dragoon Guards. The Inniskillings were the 6th Dragoons. He only arrived in the Crimea on July 6th, 1855 and was eligible for a Crimean Medal, though on the Medal Rolls for the regiment on page 94, his last name was shown as Faux (sic).

Below is the entry I have for him in a forthcoming book:

Faulks, Pte William (1420*)
Jul to Sep 1855: landed 6th Jul; with Service Troops the entire period; 11 days in Regt or Gen Hospital; paid 85 days ordinary pay and 76 days F allowance at 6d per diem with stoppages for 74 days at 4 1/2d per diem [55-3-5]. NB. *Regt. no. 1420 shows alongside the names of two men who arrived on 6 Jul 1855, Edward Mealicott and William Faulks [55-3-5].
Crimean Medal; LN shown as “Faux” on MR [94].

Cheers,

LC

Pamaga
28-02-2010, 9:31 AM
Hi Peggy

I have discovered an ancestor, Patrick Leary who was in the 11th Hussars or cherry pickers and based at Chelsea barracks around 1885 when my grandfather was born. I am wondering if Patrick could have been at the Charge? He may have been known as Patrick O'Leary or Patrick Learey. There seem to be variant spellings of the name.

Hope you may be able to help.

TIA

Pat

Peggy
28-02-2010, 3:17 PM
Hi Pat,

I don't see any Leary or O'Leary or similar name listed for the 11th.

Peggy

Lawrence W. Crider
01-03-2010, 12:02 PM
Hi Peggy, I have only just found this website and hope you are still willing to look up members of the "charge".

My g.grandfather William Foulkes was in the Royal Dragoon Guards. His details are No. 1420 PT. W.Foulks (No e ) 5th Dragoon Guards. He received the Crimea Medal, and Turkish Crimea Medal. These medals are on display at the Dragoon Guards Museum in York, I believe.

I would be interested to know if his name is listed in the Charge.

Thanks. Maureen (Denmark)

I have started a book on the members of the Heavy Brigade and so far have information on all men serving in the Crimea at the time of the Charge, and William Foulkes is not listed. I was unable to find his name on the Medal Rolls, although some of the pages are illegible.

Lawrence W. Crider
01-03-2010, 12:06 PM
A few more details about David from my book:

☼ McInnes, Pte David, (1425), 13th LD (p225)
Bn in Barony, Glasgow [58-2-24]. Enl 01-17-51 [58-2-24]. Prior Occ: Painter [58-2-21]. Abd Monarchy 2nd Mstr & on Outpost Duty 3rd Mstr [54-2-5]. Prom to Cpl 01-01-55 [55-1-4, 5]. In Crimea all 3 Mstrs [55-2-4][55-3-4]. Prom to Sgt 10-02-55 [55-4-3, 4]. At Scut all 3 Musters [55-4-3, 4][56-1-3]. Dc 06-28-56 at Kilmainham [58-2-24]. Medal [462] w/ A [462], B [487], I [462], & S [475] Clasps. Regt no. shown as “1426” (sic)[ref Thomas Blackett][56-1-3].

crowsplace
06-01-2011, 10:45 PM
Everyone here knows much more than I about their ancestor and the "charge".
I am thrilled to find this resource for certain.
It is only rumored that my 3x gg James Storemond McLaren participated in the Charge of the Light Brigade, he has claimed to have lost his leg during the battle. I have no idea as to what guard or rank he may have been or where to find out that information. I apologize and want to say I am pretty new to this. Please let me know any information you might have and guide me to find out things on my own.
Ever grateful,
Shirley

Peggy
07-01-2011, 2:17 AM
Hi Shirley,

I don''t see any McLaren. Could have missed him if they got him out of alphabetical order or something. (Without other info, I'm running through the rosters of 5 regiments, for all ranks.)

As far as guidance is concerned, others here can provide far more than I! I'm a Yankee. :-)

Cheers,

Peggy

Geoffers
07-01-2011, 7:46 AM
It is only rumored that my 3x gg James Storemond McLaren participated in the Charge of the Light Brigade, he has claimed to have lost his leg during the battle.

welcome to the B-G forums

Army records are held at The National Archives (TNA) at Kew, London. The service records for other ranks are in a series 'WO97'.

WO97 records have been scanned and mae available online. You can search for and download service records via the pay-per-view site 'findmypast'

A service record would confirm rank, regiment, service, reason for discharge

TNA has numerous research guides; it's worth putting the kettle on and with a cuppa in hand having a browse through them so you understand what is available. Click here (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guide-listing.htm#b)and look at the links prefixed 'British Army'.

Did your chap survive to be discharged from the army, or did he die from wounds?

When you look for your chap, bear in mind he may not be recorded under his full name - he may just be under John M(A)CLAR(R)(A/E/O)N

Lawrence W. Crider
10-01-2011, 3:52 AM
Everyone here knows much more than I about their ancestor and the "charge".
I am thrilled to find this resource for certain.
It is only rumored that my 3x gg James Storemond McLaren participated in the Charge of the Light Brigade, he has claimed to have lost his leg during the battle. I have no idea as to what guard or rank he may have been or where to find out that information. I apologize and want to say I am pretty new to this. Please let me know any information you might have and guide me to find out things on my own.
Ever grateful,
Shirley

The only McLaren who served in the Light Brigade during the war was 2247 Pte Andrew McLaren of the 11th Hussars---and he never embarked for the Crimea. I also checked the Heavy Brigade, but there were no McLarens serving with them for the 1st year of the war (which would include their charge).
Sorry.

LWC

crowsplace
12-01-2011, 12:55 AM
I had since googled James Storemond McLaren.
I found where he claims to have been a buglar. The following was copied from a Deseret News article I googled. Does this help?
The life of the deceased was an eventful one, and it has fallen to the lot of but a few men to have passed through so many changes of fortune. His family was among the most respected in Scotland, the deceased being closely related to Sir Colon Campbell, the hero of Lucknow. He was early left an orphan, and when he was a mere boy drifted into the British army. When the Crimean war broke out he was a bugler in the famous Light Brigade, and was present when that ever glorious charge was made at Balaklava. Early in the day of that ever-to-be-remembered fight, he was wounded by a Russian cannonball, the shot killed his horse and carrying away a leg. He laid on the field for some time, and when found was thought to be dead, but a comrade, not as badly wounded as himself declared that there was life still left in him, and he was taken to the rear and cared for. His recovery was slow, but eventually he reached England. The old man seldom spoke of the stirring events of that time, for he was an eccentric character; but when he met one who had been over the ground he warmed up, and fought the battle over again in language earnest and eloquent. He distinctly remembered Florence Nightingale, and never wearied of sounding the praises of that noble woman. He cherished to his dying day the little acts of kindness she did for him, and always said that he would have died in the Crimea, had it not been for the words of encouragement she spoke to him while he was lying wounded in the rude hospital of that ever historic battlefield.

In common with the other survivors of the "Noble Six Hundred," he was given a pension by her majesty's government. This pension he unfortunately hypothecated to get the money with which to come to this country.

(Source: - jamessmclaren.net/mclaren.html.)

Geoffers
12-01-2011, 7:38 AM
Hello
I'm one of the moderators of the B-G forums. You mention having copied the above from an article. Although an old article, does the web-site claim any form of copyright please? If it is then I will have to edit your message so that it is only a limited extract relevant to the claimed participation in the battle.

Not all news articles are accurate.

Your best bet is to search the military records online and have a read of the research guides mentioned in message no.33

crowsplace
13-01-2011, 12:44 PM
I apologize for the delay in answering as I was having some technical problems. The article I mentioned actually came from http://jamessmclaren.net/mclaren.html. I am aware of copyright laws and there was no notice given. I have also spoken in person with Mr. Cook in the past regarding this claim but to my knowledge he never pursued it further, perhaps he has and i am unaware. I will be acting on suggestions given in no. 33 and appreciate all who have made attempts on my behalf.
If you feel you need to alter my post I understand.
Thanks again to all who responded!
Shirley

Geoffers
13-01-2011, 1:27 PM
I apologize for the delay in answering as I was having some technical problems.

No problem


The article I mentioned actually came from http://jamessmclaren.net/mclaren.html. I am aware of copyright laws and there was no notice given.

Thanks for letting us know. The article on the web-site appears to have come from a newspaper. Although no longer covered by copyright, I feel it better to edit the message slightly to the pertinent (reported) facts and have added the source of information at the bottom of the page.

Although difficult to access from your side of the pond, the records held by The National Archives (TNA) may well be the way to go about showing precisely what part your chap played in the army. As mentioned, the best place to try would be the pay-per-view site 'findmypast' on the basis that puchasing some units to look at the more likely records -o i.e. those relating to a John McCL(E)(A)R(R)(E/A/O)N brn Scotland around 1840-ish - will be a lot cheaper than a return flight.

I believe the medal rolls are also available online via the pay-per-view site 'ancestry'.

Good luck

Lawrence W. Crider
17-01-2011, 3:09 AM
Unless he served under an alias, it is extremely unlikely that his story is true.
The men who served as Trumpeters in the Light Brigade in the Crimea, or those listed as Trumpeters on the Musters on their arrival later are listed below:

Regt No First Name Last Name Regiment Charge related notes
726 William Brittain 17th Lancers staff; rode with Lord Cardigan in Charge
1236 Edward Barnes 4th Light Dgns killed in the Charge
1514 James Clout 4th Light Dgns arrived after the Charge
1296 Hugh Crawford 4th Light Dgns rode in the Charge
1518 William Haas 4th Light Dgns arrived after the Charge
1247 Thomas Lovelock 4th Light Dgns killed in the Charge
1361 W. R. Tilling 4th Light Dgns arrived after the Charge
1765 William Woods 4th Light Dgns arrived after the Charge
627 John Daley 8th Hussars at Varna at the time of the Charge
1061 James Donoghue 8th Hussars rode in the Charge
1241 George Frederick Dunn 8th Hussars arrived after the Charge
1090 John William Dunn 8th Hussars rode in the Charge; severely wounded
774 William Knights 8th Hussars died before the Charge
1321 Michael Boyd 11th Hussars in Crimea; not on B Clasp rolls
1688 John Feltham 11th Hussars arrived after the Charge
1372 James Grogan 11th Hussars arrived after the Charge
914 Joseph or John Keates 11th Hussars rode in the Charge
1304 William Perkins 11th Hussars rode in the Charge
1586 William Smith 11th Hussars rode in the Charge
1402 Charles Thomas Collingwood 13th Light Dgns arrived after the Charge
1108 Richard Davis 13th Light Dgns rode in the Charge
1029 Joseph Gammage 13th Light Dgns rode in the Charge
669 William Howarth 13th Light Dgns rode in the Charge; taken prisoner
1228 Harry Powell 13th Light Dgns rode in the Charge
476 John Brown 17th Lancers rode in the Charge
926 John Brown 17th Lancers rode in the Charge
416 Henry Joy 17th Lancers Sgt; orderly trumpeter with Hvy Bde
797 Charles Kidby 17th Lancers arrived after the Charge
986 Martin Leonard Lanfried 17th Lancers rode in the Charge
610 Daniel Wall 17th Lancers arrived after the Charge

No McLarens listed.

Hlomos
13-03-2012, 6:13 PM
Hello Peggy. I am looking for John Banks of the 17th Lancers. I can't find him so maybe he went under the name if Joseph or Jack. I believe he left Hulme barracks for the Crimea, or it could have been the newly built Aldershot barracks. I also believe his daughter was born in Hulme barracks but no luck so far. It seems the lower orders really were cannon fodder.

Thank you.
Charlie.

Lawrence W. Crider
19-03-2012, 3:30 AM
Hello Peggy. I am looking for John Banks of the 17th Lancers. I can't find him so maybe he went under the name if Joseph or Jack. I believe he left Hulme barracks for the Crimea, or it could have been the newly built Aldershot barracks. I also believe his daughter was born in Hulme barracks but no luck so far. It seems the lower orders really were cannon fodder.

Thank you.
Charlie.

There was only one man named Banks serving in the 17th Lancers during the Crimean War . . . Private Joseph Banks. Entry below is from my book:

☼ Banks, Pte Joseph, (1311), 17th L (p261)
Enl 09-13-54 in London at age 19 [54D-3-7]. To Svc Trps 05-28-55 [55D-2-5]. Joined Regt 06-20-55 [55-2-5]. At Baidar 1st Mstr [55-3-5]. AA Charge. Medal [504] w/ S [510] Clasp.

As you can see, he did not arrive in the Crimea until June 1855, but was entitled to a Medal with an S Clasp. He is mentioned in Lummis and Wynn on page 261, but they have less information than I had.

Hope this is your ancestor . . .

Hlomos
20-03-2012, 8:02 PM
Hello. It doesn't look very likely. Ah well back to the drawing board.
Thank you.
Charlie.

Lawrence W. Crider
18-09-2012, 4:28 PM
The man you are asking about is listed as "William Faulks" on the pay lists and muster rolls of the 5th Dragoon Guards. He would have been entitled to a Crimean Medal with a Sebastopol Clasp and a Turkish Medal. Here is what I have about him in my book:


Faulks, Pte William (1420*), 5th Dragoon Guards
Jul to Sep 1855: landed 6th Jul; with Service Troops the entire period; 11 days in Regt or Gen Hospital; paid 85 days ordinary pay and 76 days F allowance at 6d per diem with stoppages for 74 days at 4 1/2d per diem [55-3-5]. NB. *Regt. no. 1420 shows alongside the names of two men who arrived on 6 Jul 1855, Edward Mealicott and William Faulks [55-3-5].
Crimean Medal; LN shown as “Faux” on MR [94].

Desiboy
06-01-2013, 7:21 PM
Hello everybody, I haven't been on here for a few years. Good to see the thread is still going. My ancestor was William (Billy) Brittain. Lord Cardigans bugler during the Charge.
A few years ago I came across the grave of Henry Joy in a churchyard behind a brewery at Hogarths Corner, West London on the A4.
His headstone claims that he is the man who sounded the Charge of the Light Brigade. I was somewhat peeved to see this knowing that he was in the Heavy Brigade and did not take part in the Charge. He went around claiming that he sounded the Charge for a few years but was shunned by all the veterans of the Charge who knew he did not ride alongside him. He was not invited to the annual dinners of the veterans and eventually owned up to being economical with the truth!!
I am in the middle of reading a collection of glorious accounts of the Charge and life in the Crimea. I will post the link in my next post as it is full of information and first hand accounts of the tough times the ordinary soldiers suffered in that war.

Desiboy
06-01-2013, 7:25 PM
Here is the link. This is really well worth spending some time reading all the accounts. Scroll down to the bottom of the page to get back to the home page...
http://
medalcollector.co.uk/chargersearch/accounts.html

RDalgleish
23-03-2018, 8:25 PM
My great great great great uncle was in 13th Regiment Of Light Dragoons and was in the charge. Bartholomew Heron (sometimes Herron) from Dalkeith near Edinburgh. Died in Edinburgh aged just 27. Have done a little research on this and come across Lawrence W. Crider's really good book online. A few things there which I didn't know and at least one I not agree with but hey it fascinating just the same. Would love to know what happened to medals. Scattered to the winds more than likely. Also maybe a daft question but what is Mstr short for as in "In Crimea all 3 Mstrs" - Many thanks

Peggy
24-03-2018, 3:33 AM
Bartholomew is listed in the 1973 book I have as a Private in the 13th Light Dragoons, but is not shown as having participated in the Charge (= name not capitalized.). The only details given are:

Enlisted: c. February 1851
Medal: Crimea (A.B.I.S.)

Peggy

RDalgleish
24-03-2018, 9:45 AM
Hi Peggy,

Thanks for comments. Yes according to my research that one of slight errors in book. He enlisted for instance in 21st Feb 1850. He awarded Crimea medal with all 4 clasps and was also in Scutari Hospital

For family tree am interested in comments relating to Coventry, Hampton Court, Culloden, and if I can find dates he was at these places. You have any idea as to what MSTR might mean? Here is a quote from Crider's excellent book - In Search of the Light Brigade::-
"Heron Pte Bartholomew (1432) LD
At Coventry 3rd Mstr. At Hampton Ct 1st Mstr and Culloden 2nd and 3rd Mstr. In Crimea all 3 Mstrs"

Peggy
24-03-2018, 3:37 PM
My knowledge of things military is pretty non-existent. My guess for MSTR would be "Muster." I have copies of entries from Muster Rolls for the unit in which an ancestor served in the US Civil War. They show him as Present or Absent at various times.

Btw, a person's name not being capitalized in the book I have doesn't mean that he wasn't in the Charge, only that the authors didn't find his name on lists they consulted.

Peggy

Brian57
12-08-2018, 7:41 AM
My great great grandfather was Trooper John McCausland of the 8th Hussars. Family lore has it that he was a participant in The Charge of the Light Brigade and was captured during the battle, however the scant records appear to show that the 8th were held back by the commanding officer so I am unable to reconcile the family story to the battle accounts, can anyone help me clarify this?
Regards
Brian Wilson

wimsey
12-08-2018, 8:44 AM
My great great grandfather was Trooper John McCausland of the 8th Hussars. Family lore has it that he was a participant in The Charge of the Light Brigade and was captured during the battle, however the scant records appear to show that the 8th were held back by the commanding officer so I am unable to reconcile the family story to the battle accounts, can anyone help me clarify this?
Regards
Brian Wilson


have you seen his entry in the book "Forgotten Heroes" by Roy Dutton ? - (easily found on google if you haven't)

Brian57
12-08-2018, 9:09 AM
Thank you very much for the information, I had not known about Roy Dutton’s book but have now read the appropriate section which states that he did ride in the Charge. Again many thanks for your input.
Regards
Brian Wilson

wimsey
12-08-2018, 11:09 AM
Thank you very much for the information, I had not known about Roy Dutton’s book but have now read the appropriate section which states that he did ride in the Charge. Again many thanks for your input.
Regards
Brian Wilson

if you are able to get access to historic British newspapers (through FindMyPast or British Newspaper Archive), I think your ancestor gets at least two mentions - once in May/June 1890 when a fund-raising entertainment was put on at the Free Trade Hall, Manchester (Manchester Evening News), in which he participated. Secondly in an August 1891 Sunderland newspaper, though I'm not sure of the context, I think the article is headed "Balaclava Heroes". There may well be other newspaper references.

wimsey
12-08-2018, 11:29 AM
I think there's another mention in 1893 - the year of his death ? (Sunderland again)

Have you already researched him in military records ? it looks as if FindMyPast has some sort of Crimea service record (I don't have a subscription to look at it).

wimsey
12-08-2018, 12:26 PM
once in May/June 1890 when a fund-raising entertainment was put on at the Free Trade Hall, Manchester (Manchester Evening News), in which he participated.

that is referenced on page 381 of Dutton's book

helachau
12-08-2018, 4:05 PM
FindMypast has records for a John Mccausland of the 8th Hussars (N0. 1114). It does confirm one of the newspaper mentions ("Balaclava Heroes") of his service in India

helachau
12-08-2018, 4:23 PM
Lawrence W Crider in his book "In search of the Light Brigade" (available on google books) includes a photo of Buffalo Bill appearing with survivors of Balaclava. It mentions that the character 6th from the left, front row" is possibly Mccausland.

The google book is searchable and the photo can be viewed. There are several Mccausland mentions.

Brian57
22-08-2018, 10:19 AM
Lawrence W Crider in his book "In search of the Light Brigade" (available on google books) includes a photo of Buffalo Bill appearing with survivors of Balaclava. It mentions that the character 6th from the left, front row" is possibly Mccausland.

The google book is searchable and the photo can be viewed. There are several Mccausland mentions.

Thanks for that, there is an original print of that photo in the family collection and I can confirm that John McCausland is indeed the gentleman sitting sixth from the left with sword in hand. I will look up Crider’s book, thanks for the head’s up.
Regards

jamsieree
21-11-2019, 7:26 PM
Speaking of the Charge, I have a book which lists the participants, by regiment. There is some biographical information for some names. Not easy doing lookups; but if someone has a name, preferably accompanied by rank and regiment, AND good reason to think that the man was in the Charge, I'll give it a try.

Peggy

Hi Peggy, I'm not sure if you're still on here at all, but in your book do you see a Charles Lambert in the 13th Light Dragoons?

helachau
22-11-2019, 7:37 PM
Hi Peggy, I'm not sure if you're still on here at all, but in your book do you see a Charles Lambert in the 13th Light Dragoons?

Had you seen this item in the Milford News, a Michigan newspaper?
https://digmichnews.cmich.edu/?a=d&d=OaklandMT18981224-01.1.5&

See highlighted /middle page - column 3, half way down.

Another article in the Milford Times, Mar 5 1898, describes him as " ... a resident of this township ..."