Rutters in Hayes

[Azhria Lilu]

First off, I need to thank Colin Rutter for supplying me with an absolute mountain of information, which I'm positive will be very useful once I get this family out of the 1900's and into the 1800s and beyond :D

I'm tracing the Rutter family on behalf of my partner and not having much in the way of luck as no matter which family member I search for I'm coming to a complete blank everywhere.

The line goes as follows:-

my partner - Gary Anthony Rutter - (b 1967 in Chiswick)
his father - Anthony Ronald Rutter (b 1945 in Brenford) married Susan Taylor. Anthony's (Tony) has a brother called Alan (b 1947).
grandfather - Ronald Murray Christian Rutter (b 1920 in Hounslow) married harriet Elizabeth Clack (b 1919)

Unfortunately I can't get any further back for a couple of reasons. I managed to find the birth record of Ronald M C Rutter - his mother's maiden name is Becker, but his father was known simply as The Baron (and that, as I'm sure you understand) is hard to search out *laughs*

As for Harriet Clack (better known as Betty) The only record I can find of her is her death in Devon in October 1991 and absolutely nothing else.

If anyone can help at all with this scrap of information I have, I would truly appreciate it.

Lisa

[Ron Leech]

As for Harriet Clack (better known as Betty) The only record I can find of her is her death in Devon in October 1991 and absolutely nothing else.
If you know she died in 1991 then it should offer a date of birth in the registration details. Look a couple of years around this period on freeBMD to list possible people. Then it is a process of elimination.

Where she married may be a clue to area of birth.

[Azhria Lilu]

I found Harriet's death under her married name of Rutter, but there doesn't seem to be any record of her marriage or her birth anywhere *laughs* She was born in 1919 in Middlesex....not 100% certain of the area.. somewhere near Hounslow or Brentford, I believe. But I haven't managed to find anything that remotely resembles her. Will keep trying though, I'm stubborn like that. :)

[Geoffers]

grandfather - Ronald Murray Christian Rutter (b 1920 in Hounslow) married harriet Elizabeth Clack (b 1919)
Unfortunately I can't get any further back for a couple of reasons. I managed to find the birth record of Ronald M C Rutter - his mother's maiden name is Becker, but his father was known simply as The Baron
Most unusual name, I've never come across a name like that before. Is this as recorded in his son's birth certificate? Could his name actually read Tho(mas) Baron??

Is the B in Baron a capital letter or lower case in his son's birth certificate?

Can you locate when he died? Under what name is his death registered (or will proven)?

From the birth certificate, does his occupation gives any clues as to how to trace him further back?

continued.....

[Geoffers]

part 2.....


As for Harriet Clack (better known as Betty) The only record I can find of her is her death in Devon in October 1991
Could she have been born in Scotland, and thus not appear on the GRO index?

From her marriage certificate, what is her father's name/occupation? Does he show up on the 1901 census?

If born in England/Wales, has her name been wrongly indexed under say, CLARK?

Did either of the fathers of Ronald Rutter or Harriet Clack serve in WW1 (any photos, medals, memories in the family?) Have you tried searching the CWGC site and Documentsonline (for WW1 medal card index and RN seamens' services)

Geoffers

[Azhria Lilu]

Most unusual name, I've never come across a name like that before. Is this as recorded in his son's birth certificate? Could his name actually read Tho(mas) Baron??

Is the B in Baron a capital letter or lower case in his son's birth certificate?

Can you locate when he died? Under what name is his death registered (or will proven)?

From the birth certificate, does his occupation gives any clues as to how to trace him further back?

continued.....The Baron was a nickname of his father's. We don't have his real name, other than his surname is Rutter and he married Ms Becker (Ronald's mother)


Could she have been born in Scotland, and thus not appear on the GRO index?

From her marriage certificate, what is her father's name/occupation? Does he show up on the 1901 census?

If born in England/Wales, has her name been wrongly indexed under say, CLARK?

Did either of the fathers of Ronald Rutter or Harriet Clack serve in WW1 (any photos, medals, memories in the family?) Have you tried searching the CWGC site and Documentsonline (for WW1 medal card index and RN seamens' services)

Geoffers
No she was definitely born in Middlesex. I don't have any information on her parents as yet, so can't search them out. Ronald is still alive, but unfortunately he's in no condition to be questioned as he's in a hospice with total renal failure and pumped so full of drugs to ease his pain that most days he doesn't know who he is, let alone anyone else :(

Harriet didn't use her first name but her middle one - Elizabeth - and was known as Betty by everyone. She had two brothers - Arthur and John - Arthur married a woman called Joan.

Regretfully, that is all I have to work with currently.

I will check thru the clarks, thanks for the tip :)

[Peter Goodey]

"I managed to find the birth record of Ronald M C Rutter"

"We don't have his real name, other than his surname is Rutter and he married Ms Becker (Ronald's mother)"

Those two statements don't really hang together. Ronald's birth certificate will give you the mother's full maiden name and father's full name.

Do you have the birth certificate or not? If not, you need it and you'll probably find that everything else is all plain sailing.

[Azhria Lilu]

I didn't say I had the birth certificate :) I said I'd found the birth record (ancestry) which doesn't list the father's name nor the mother's first name.

[Peter Goodey]

"I said I'd found the birth record (ancestry) which doesn't list the father's name nor the mother's first name"

It sounds to me as if what you found is an entry in the GRO index which looks as if it might be the right one. I'm afraid this is not a birth record - it is merely an entry in an index which leads to a birth record, in other words a certificate.

You need to get the certificate for the reasons I have already explained.

[Geoffers]

I didn't say I had the birth certificate :) I said I'd found the birth record (ancestry) which doesn't list the father's name nor the mother's first name.Aaah! Then as per reasons outlined by Peter, you need to obtain these certificates. If you are not too sure about the system of civil registration and how to order certificates, please ask.

What index have you checked on Ancestry? If not sure, this is a good lesson to learn early on - record everything! You never know when you are going to need to double-check records and you need to know what you've found, when and where. If you post the details of the entry you've found, someone should be able to confirm the source of the information.

continued...

[Geoffers]

part 2.....


No she was definitely born in Middlesex.
In looking for her birth, have you checked the complete General Register Office (GRO) index, or just the records on Ancestry?

Geoffers

[Wirral]

Hi Lisa

My suggestion is that you make sure you have a ticket for the Euromillions draw tonight - you are going to need a few pennies for all the certificates. ;)

Haven't done too much housework again today - having fun with the Clacks!
From the GRO index:
Harriet E. Clack born March quarter 1920 Brentford vol 3a page 332, mother's maiden surname - Burton
Now I haven't worked out which Clack is his father, but there was only one Clack family in Hounslow, all descended from James Clack b.1840 Hardwick, Oxfordshire. He had sons Tom b.1870, James b.1787, Richard b.1879, William b.1883 & Henry W. b.1887. Harriet could be a child of theirs or a grandchild (Tom, son of Tom was abt.29 in 1920).



Now the question is, do you want me to give you the census references 1851 - 1901, or do you want the fun of finding them for yourself? !

[Geoffers]

all descended from James Clack b.1840 Hardwick, Oxfordshire.
Do the census returns you have found clarify which Hardwick in Oxfordshire?

Geoffers

[Peter Goodey]

"Do the census returns you have found clarify which Hardwick in Oxfordshire?"

There's a James CLACK age 71 from Hardwick in the Witney Union workhouse in the 1881 census so based on nothing but coincidence, I'll put a shilling each way on Hardwick in the Witney Union.

[Peter Goodey]

Doggedly pursuing the same tenuous link, I'd add that James CLACK - clearly the pater familias :D - of Hardwick married Mary WHITLOCK at Ducklington on 8 Nov 1826.

That's enough misleading leads - I'll give it a rest now and return to sanity tomorrow.

[Wirral]

I think 9 out of 10 for Peter! :) The IGI lists the birth of James Clack 4 May 1840 Hardwick, Oxford, to James Clack & Mary Witlock. Also that he was born "about 1840, of Duckington, Hamlet of Hardwick, Oxford". And that James Clark born abt, 1803 Hardwick, died about 1883, married Mary Whitlock 21 Oct 1826, Ducklington, Oxford or 8 Nov 1826 [I am guessing that one date is from the banns, the other from the marriage ceremony]. But this info does not have a reference - it was submitted by an LDS member - so that loses you a point ;) .

1851 census HO107/1727 folio 170 page 59 Summer town, Oxford St Giles, Oxfordshire
James Clack head M 49 labourer, Oxon. Hardwick
Mary " wife m 50 Oxon Witney
Thomas " son 18 labourer Oxon Hardwick
Michael " son 16 labourer Oxon hardewick
The IGI lists the birth of James Clack 4 May 1840 Hardwick, Oxford, to James Clack & Mary Witlock. Also that he was born "about 1840, of Duckington, Hamlet of Hardwick, Oxford". And that James Clark born abt, 1803 Hardwick, died about 1883, married Mary Whitlock 21 Oct 1826, Ducklington, Oxford or 8 Nov 1826 [I am guessing that one date is from the banns, the other from the marriage ceremony]. But this info does not have a reference - it was submitted by an LDS member - so that loses you a point ;) .

1851 census HO107/1727 folio 170 page 59 Summer town, Oxford St Giles, Oxfordshire
James Clack head M 49 labourer, Oxon. Hardwick
Mary " wife m 50 Oxon Witney
Thomas " son 18 labourer Oxon Hardwick
Michael " son 16 labourer Oxon hardwick
Elizabeth dau 13 Oxon Hardwick
James " son 10 Oxon Hardwick

[Wirral]

I broke rule number 1. Do not try to edit your spelling mistakes or you will be got by the repeating bug. AARRGGHH. |rant|

[Peter Goodey]

"But this info does not have a reference - it was submitted by an LDS member - so that loses you a point "

But the details I quoted didn't come from the IGI - they came from the Oxfordshire Marriage Index, published by the Oxon FHS. I claim the point back :D

[Wirral]

Peter

You can have the point back, but lose half of it for being up too early in the morning! :p

[Peter Goodey]

You can have the point back, but lose half of it for being up too early in the morning! :p
Grrrr. I'll get you in the playground for that...

[Azhria Lilu]

Wow! How on earth do you people do that! :D

I have a little more information as well.

Ronald Rutter's parents were Madge Becker and Ernest Rutter - Madge was short for Magdalina or Magdelene... I've found a Magdalina Becker (born in Nottinghill in 1896), who's father was born in Germany which also corresponds with what we know - that one side of the family originated from Germany. Her father was Christian Becker - born abt 1958 - and mother Clara (don't know the surname) born 1870 in Bungay, Suffolk. Ronald had a brother called Norman.


Betty (Harriet) Clack's parents were John (known as Jack) Clack and Elizabeth (unknown surname) but Burton definitely appears somewhere as Anthony Rutter (my partner's dad) confirms that on the Clack side they are related to the Burtons (of Burton Shop fame). Betty had two brothers John and Arthur Clack. Arthur married a woman called Joan and, although we don't know who John married, we do know he died in Hayes, Middlesex (not that I think that will help much as we don't know what year!)

Thanks for all your help on this (specially Wirral, who's helped me immensely with my own family!)

[Wirral]

Birth June quarter 1891 Brentford vol 3a page 51, John Thomas Clack. He is the son of Tom & Sarah, called John T. in 1891, & called Tom in 1901.

[colin rutter]

Hi Lisa,

Glad you're doing so well. Just a note to say that the 1861 reference I sent you of John Clack in my grandmother's home in Botwell, Hayes says he was born in Stanton Harcourt, Bedfordshire. It's wrong. Stanton Harcourt is in Oxfordshire and by looking at the map it appears Stanton Harcourt is only about two miles from Hardwick. So perhaps the Botwell John Clack is connected with the family from Hardwick. Maybe the boundaries changed. I don't know.
Best regards
Colin

[Geoffers]

looking at the map it appears Stanton Harcourt is only about two miles from Hardwick.
I can confirm this, it's about a 10 minute walk from one place to t'other along the minor road which goes passed Beard Mill.

Geoffers

[Azhria Lilu]

Excellent stuff... I think I might have tracked back to this John Clack now... just confirming details and then I'll let you know :D

[Azhria Lilu]

Have a small update on this and could do with some fresh eyes if any are available :D

Turns out that Magdalina Becker was adopted by her stepfather Christian Becker. Her mother, Clara, was married to a man with the surname Honeysett or hunnysett (unsure which spelling) so Magdalina was actually Magdalina Honeysett.

Also had confirmation that John T Clack and Elizabeth Burton are the correct ones, with John's parents being Thomas Clack and Sarah (unsure of her surname). Another bit of information is that Thomas and Sarah had a daughter called Ada Clack who, incidently only died a few years ago in the Isle of Wight. She was a missionary in Africa.

[Clackcarter]

Hi, I am new to this site. Can anyone provide some help with my own Clack family? I am stuck! Arthur Clack was born in Marylebone 26/4/1892. I can't find a birth certificate for him, but I have a photocopy of his christening(11/5/1892) which confirms this. His parents were John and Harriet Clack of 13, Christchurch Buildings, Marylebone. The 1891 census has John Clack head
age 23 and wife Harriet age 22. ( I can't confirm this - I was given the info. by a researcher). There were many other Clacks in the area and in the buildings. They nearly all put their profession as 'Slater' - so I assumed they were all related. The problem is I am unable to find a marriage certificate for John and Harriet. To make matters worse I have seen Arthur and his sister (Jessie b 1888) on the 1901 census, living in Union St. Marylebone with his mother Harriet Clark b. C 1852. Although she was married, her husband was not at the address. However I have come across another Harriet b C1852 1901 census in Burwell, Cambs. She had a son called John age 11 (this fits in with the story of an older brother John). She is married but husband not at the address. Can anyone help me join the dots?