Irwin - Grasmere Westmoreland

[jirwin]

Hi;

My Great Grandfather was William Irwin (born Feb 01 1857 in Grasmere Westmoreland). My Grandfather was Victor Irwin. I think that his father was also a William Irwin and that my great grandfather's mother was Dorothy Greenop.

I have looked at FreeBMD, FamilySearch and the 1901 census on the National Archives site.

I am hoping that someone can help me show that William Irwin and Dorothy Greenop really were my great great grandparents and any other information about their parents. Anything would be greatly appreicated.

Thanks,

jeff

[Geoffers]

Start from the last point you can prove and work from there. So, you have your granfather Victor - his marriage certificate will give his dad's name and occupation. If Victor's birth was registered, get his certificate and this will give both parents' names (hopefully father's name and occupation match those on the marriage certificate).

When was Victor born? Check the census immediately after his birth to see if he is with his parents. Does this confirm other information you've been able to obtain.

The 1881 census transcript doesn't seem to show Victor, so I am guessing he was born after then. There is however, the following entry:
RG11/5207 f53 p20
Elterwater, Langdale
William IRWIN, hd, widr, 58, cooper, bn Keswick
William Irwin, son, mar, 24, Slate river, bn Grasmere
Ann IRWIN, wf, mar, 20, sons' wfe, bn Whitehaven
Eleanor IRWIN, dau, unm, 26, dom.servt, bn Langdale (Grasmere).
Alfred IRWIN, son, unm, 19, slate dresser, bn Langdale (Grasmere).
Edwin IRWIN, son, unm, 15, slate dresser, bn Langdale (Grasmere)
James IRWIN, son, 12, scholar, bn Langdale (Grasmere).

continued....

[Geoffers]

part 2......

Hopefully the William and Ann match up with Victor's birth certificate - and the 1901 census?

Searching the 1861 census index, there is only one William Irwin, aged 4 (+/- 2 years) born, or living in Westmorland.

This entry refers to RG9/3963 f130 p16 at Elterwater. There, William is shown with siblings and parents, William, aged 38, a cooper bn Keswick; and Dorothy, aged 25, bn Troutbeck. Most of their children are shown born Langdale. With the entry from 1881 showing a birthplace Langdale (Grasmere), I wonder if this means that they lived south of the village then, perhaps along Red Bank Road?

So, you seem to be there, or therabouts, it's a case of trying to confirm detail with certificates. If you're not too sure how to look for and obtain them, please ask.

Geoffers

[jirwin]

Hi Geoffers;

This is awesome. Some of it I had found prior, but Its always nice to follow through. I notice that you use "RG9/3963 f130 p16". Something that I will have to start doing.

I don't have marrage or birth certificates. I understand that an Aunt has them, but they are in the attic and she is not keen on mountaineering up to get them. Can you tell me how would I go about requesting them from the Public Record Office?

I really appreicate you getting back to me so quickly.

jeff

[Geoffers]

This is awesome. Some of it I had found prior, but Its always nice to follow through. I notice that you use "RG9/3963 f130 p16". Something that I will have to start doing.It's useful to use the full reference as it helps to go back and double-check an entry and if communicating to someone else it means that you know they are looking at the same page as yourself. Think of it as being like an address. If you are not sure how to work out the reference or what the different bits mean, just ask.

continued.......

[Geoffers]

part 2.......


I don't have marrage or birth certificates. I understand that an Aunt has them, but they are in the attic and she is not keen on mountaineering up to get them. Can you tell me how would I go about requesting them from the Public Record Office?Certificates are important in researching modern family history (By modern, I mean since 1837), once you've looked at a few, you'll understand why. They contain the information needed to create a basic 'family tree' and hint at where else you may have to look for information.

Since 1837 there has been a system of civil registration in England and Wales. A birth, marriage or death recorded was recorded by the local Registrar. He then sent a copy to the General Register Office (GRO).

continued......

[Geoffers]

part 3.....
The GRO indexed the entries it received (note the index is only of use to the GRO). Every three months it produced an alphabetical index to events, the March quarter incldues events recorded in Jan, Feb and Mar. June quarter includes Apr, May and Jun - etc. People had several weeks to register an event, so for example if someone was born in the second half of February, or in March, you may find their birth registered in the June quarter.

The index varies according to the period you are looking at and the type of event, but very basically includes the following detail:

Year, Quarter, Surname, Forename(s), Registration District, Volume No. Page No.

Record all the detail from an entry in the index.

continued....

[Geoffers]

part 4....
The index is available in many County Record Offices/Local Studies Libraries, also at the Family Records Centre (FRC) in London. It may also be viewed online. There is a project to index it and make the index freely available. Although not complete, it is a useful starting point. The URL is:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/

The complete GRO index can be searched on a pay-per-view web-site 1837online

Once you have found an entry you can apply and pay for a copy of the certificate online. There is a direct link through from 1837online, but otherwise the URL is
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/
Note that there are several private companies who have URLs which look as though they may be official, they may include the letters 'gro' - DON'T USE THEM - they charge more money, just use the official site.

Geoffers

[Geoffers]

and lastly......
If you are not familiar with the area. There is a useful free online resource http://www.old-maps.co.uk/
Click on 'County Gazeteer' then 'W' and 'Westmorland'. To find the village where you family were living in 1861, select 'E' and 'Elterwater' (note that the small map displayed can be repositioned using the arrows by the side of the map. The village has the same name as the nearby lake.

Look below the small map and you'll see some links, 'enlarged view' and 'aerial photo'. On the map you'll see there was a quarry just WSW of Elterwater - possibly where they worked?
You might also like
http://www.thecumbriadirectory.com/Town_or_Village/Elterwater/Elterwater.php
http://www.visitcumbria.com/amb/grasmere.htm

Geoffers

[jirwin]

All this is much appreicated. I have been looking at the sites you mention. I was also looking at the ancestry site. I was a bit put off by the format. Have you used them before?

By the way, what does "Tuch tipist extrawdinair" mean?

Have a great day and thanks again.

jeff

[Geoffers]

All this is much appreicated. I have been looking at the sites you mention. I was also looking at the ancestry site. I was a bit put off by the format.A lot of people use and like Ancestry - I'm not one of them.


By the way, what does "Tuch tipist extrawdinair" mean?A bit of a joke. I had something else under my name on these forums which someone suggested wasn't appropriate - so I changed it. I may do again when I get to 3,000 posts.

Geoffers

[Jenny Irwin]

Hi Jeff

Just seen your message about your great grandfather William Irwin born 1857 in Grasmere.

I believe that my great grandfather was John Irwin born Grasmere 1847 and was possibly William's older brother.

We also think there is a connection with Greenop because on the Free BMD website the marriage record for John has his name as John Irwin Greenop married to Agnes Tyson Walker.

We were told by a relative that my great grandfather John was buried in Langdale and on one of our many visits to the Lakes we had a look round the cemetery but couldn't find a gravestone for John but did find the gravestone for William and Ann.

We are today sending off for John and Agnes' marriage certificate to see what John's father's name is recorded as - we think it will probably be William.

If you have discovered any more information in your research we would be very happy to hear from you.

Kind regards.



Jenny

[jirwin]

Hi;

I was really pleased to see your post. I hope that some of the stuff that I have helps you out.

My grandfather was Victor Irwin. My dad visited the Lake District last year and found a grave stone at Brathey Church near Ambleside that lists my great aunts and uncles, as well as my great grandfather (William) and great grand mother (Ann born 1860). From that I was able to find William Irwin (born 1857) on the National Archives site which gave me info about his place of birth.

Then I looked a the Family Search site at

www.familysearch.org

Here I found info on the 1881 census. It lists William Irwin as being the son of William Irwin. There is a “household” link on the right hand side. This shows the whole family. Since William (junior) is married to Ann I am reasonably confident that this is the right William Irwin.

I had information given to me that there was a William Irwin married to a Dorothy in the 1851 census. In

www.freebmd.org

I found a Dorothy Greenop in the same listing as a William Irwin married in 1846. I have no real evidence that this is the right William Irwin. Dorothy does not show in the 1881 census.

I live in Canada in a place called Sooke, British Columbia and as a result my family history has been over the internet.

Please let me know if this helps.

Jeff Irwin

[jirwin]

Hi;

I received a note from Greg Stevens from the Boat Band

He pointed me to a link from an artical he had written. It is about William Irwin who played fiddle music in the Lake District.

The artical is at

http://www.harbourtownrecords.com/boatirwin.htm

You will probably find it very interesting.

Jeff

[Jenny Irwin]

Hi Jeff

It was great to see your reply to our posting.

We have just got a copy of William Irwin & Dorothy Greenop's marriage certificate and also a copy of John Irwin & Agnes Tyson Walker's marriage certificate. We believe, but can't prove, that John was the first born son of William Irwin & Dorothy Greenop and therefore, your William's brother.

We recently found the article about the Life & Times of William Irwin - The Lakeland Fiddler - and found it really interesting.

We have a copy of my Grandfather's marriage certificate (William Irwin married to Isabella Cross) and on the certificate William's father's name is John Irwin and his occupation is a Cooper - hence we thought we might be on the right lines!

We are just confused that on John Irwin's marriage certificate the father's name has been left blank and he is calling himself John Irwin Greenop. However, in the 1851, 1861 and 1881 Censuses he is down as John Irwin but in 1871 and 1901 he is listed as a Greenop. We initially thought it might have been because he was possibly born out of wedlock but the records show that William & Dorothy were married in 1846 and that John was born in 1847 so we are a bit puzzled!!! I suppose we may never know why.

Anyway, if you haven't already got a copy of William & Dorothy's marriage certificate just email us and we can send you a copy.

We (our section of the Irwin family) live both in Cumbria and Hampshire. I live in Hampshire. There are a lot of us! My mum and dad (John Irwin) had 10 children!

We think we got confused about the gravestones in Chapel Stile - the names on the stones we found were actually Ann & Thomas not Ann & William.

Hope to hear from you again soon.


Jenny

[Geoffers]

We are just confused that on John Irwin's marriage certificate the father's name has been left blank and he is calling himself John Irwin Greenop....records show that William & Dorothy were married in 1846 and that John was born in 1847 so we are a bit puzzled!Forgive my interruption (I like a puzzle), but is that year of birth from his birth certificate?, a calculated year of birth from census, or a baptism from the parish register?

Geoffers

[Jenny Irwin]

Hi Geoffers,

Thanks for your interruption! We are always happy for any help.

We got the birth date from the Censuses. We do have the marriage certificate but it just says "full age".

We have a copy of my Grandfather's marriage certificate and on it it says father's name John Irwin, occupation Cooper. The only John Irwin we could find in the Census records (in the 1881 Census to start with) who was a Cooper and had a son William of the right age was John Irwin Greenop. In some censuses he is John Irwin and in others he is John Irwin Greenop!

We have only co-incidences to go on with linking this John Irwin to William Irwin and Dorothy Greenop and before that to my grandfather William Irwin. I have spoken to my Uncle and he seems to think that his Grandfather John Irwin is buried in Langdale - which also ties in with the William Irwin & Dorothy Greenop tree but we don't know if we are reading too much into this.

We are now trying to go back to basics and start with what we definitely know - which isn't a lot! We know that my Grandfather, William Irwin, was born in 1879 (we have a copy of his marriage certificate) and we also know that he served in the army and lost an eye in either the Boer War or the First World War and was pensioned off. Do you know what information we would need and where we could find any record of his service history. We assume as he was pensioned off that there must be some records. Although we don't personally know what regiment he was in we might be able to find out these details as we have recently found out that one of my cousins has the medals in his possession.

If you could point us in the right direction we would be very grateful.



Jenny

[Geoffers]

previously - "records show that William & Dorothy were married in 1846 and that John was born in 1847"


We got the birth date from the Censuses. We do have the marriage certificate but it just says "full age".
Ages on census returns can be somewhat fluid and vary according to knowledge, or lack of it. It is an assumption which may be wrong, but I think he may well have been born/baptised a year or two earlier. This swapping of surnames between census returns is not uncommon; in my experience it is frequently associated with illegitimate births.

I suggest that you search the GRO index for his birth, under both IRWIN and GREEN(O/U)P. His birth may not have been registered, so the next stage after that is to try the parish registers. If you find a baptism of an illegitimate GREEN(O/U)P child and not long after the marriage of the mother to someone called IRWIN; it would tend to help the conflicting names on census returns to fall into place.
continued....

[Geoffers]

part 2.....


We are now trying to go back to basics and start with what we definitely know
Always the best strategy and to be thoroughly recommended.


William Irwin, was born in 1879 (we have a copy of his marriage certificate)
The marriage certificate hopefully gives his father's name and occupation - also names of witnesses who may help. I'd use this information to try and locate him in the 1881 census and also the GRO index - again looking under both surnames. I've posted a couple of replies on this thread about how to locate the General Register Office (GRO) indexes ad order certificates.

continued......

[Geoffers]

part 3.....


and we also know that he served in the army and lost an eye in either the Boer War
Can you find him in the 1901 census? If you can it would suggest that he may not have gone to South Africa. If you can't he may well have done so. The medal rolls at The National Archives are in WO100


or the First World War and was pensioned off.
You might try searching the medal card index to see if you can find him
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/
(look to the left of the screen and click on family history, then on WW1 Campaign Medals)

continued....

[Geoffers]

part 4.....


Do you know what information we would need and where we could find any record of his service history.The National Archives (TNA) at Kew is the place to look.

Have a browse of their online exhibition
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pathways/firstworldwar/index.htm
and their research guides:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/researchguidesindex.asp
(scroll down to the letter 'B' and see the various links under British Army)

continued....

[Geoffers]

part 5....


we have recently found out that one of my cousins has the medals in his possession.
If the medals look like those shown in this link
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/medals.asp
then they are from WW1 - look around the edge of the circular medals and one of them should have his name, rank, number and regiment.

Geoffers

[jirwin]

Hi Jenny;

Greg Stephens (please note that it should be ph not v) in his artical about William Irwin notes that he married Dorothy Greenop and that she had been widowed. Greenop was her first husband's name, origionally she was Birkett. Perhaps John was a child from her first marrage?

Just a thought.

Just out of curiosity, how do you go about ordering marrage certificates?

Jeff

[Geoffers]

Just out of curiosity, how do you go about ordering marrage certificates?
See page 1 of this thread, message numbers 6,7 and 8 - if still not clear, please ask.

Geoffers

[DG Stephens]

Message for Jenny Irwin who posted above: I am the author of the article mentioned about William Irwin the Langdale fiddler, who is the subject of this thread. I can tell you quite a bit about your ancestor, and the Irwin/Greenup question. Please get in touch via the harbourtown records website and the William Irwin article. Any other William Irwin descendants are welcome to correspond, likewise.
Greg stephens

[jirwin]

See page 1 of this thread, message numbers 6,7 and 8 - if still not clear, please ask.

Geoffers

Thanks Geoffers;

I guess that I was expecting it to be more complicated than that. On the other hand, I have only now realized what

Tuch typist extrawdinaire

means<SIGH>

Thanks,

Jeff

[Kevin Statham]

I too am a distant relative of you both and would love to share any info you might have,although between the two of you I think you have found what you were looking for.
My link:
William Irwin ( the cumbrian Fiddler ) married Dorothy Greenop 21/11/1846
They had 11 children altogether. First was John ( age 4 in the 1851 census)
then Robert, Mary, Ann, Eleanor, William, Thomas? Alfred, Dorothy, Edwin and James.
The question mark against the position of Thomas is because 1861 census says 8 yrs old and the 1871 census says 12 and by 1881 he had 'moved on'
Ann Irwin the 4th child is my Great grandma. She married Edward Gill and one their children was Elizabeth who grew up to marry Morris John McGarr ( Billy to his mates) and then came my mother Eleanor who married Harry Statham and they were EXTREMELY fortunate to have me (amongst others)
Kevin Statham born 21 Jan 1950.
And would love to hear from you [email protected]

[jirwin]

Hi;

Nice to hear from you Kevin (I also saw your note on the mudcat.org site). Thanks for listing the names of William Irwin's children. I can add them to my listing now. I had a note from the Archivist in Kendal some time ago she listed information found in 1851 census
************************************************** ***********************************************
I checked the Langdale Register WPR 96/1 and found the following entry -


1 Feb 1857 William son of William and Dorothy Irving of Elterwater cooper


This ties in with the 1851 census entry
Walthwaite (Langdale)

William Irvin age 28 cooper b. Keswick, Cumberland
Dorothy 25 wife b Troutbeck Westmorland
John 4 b Langdale
Robert 2 b Langadale
Mary 8mth b Langdale

Eleanor 54 aunt in law Charwoman b. Troutbeck
************************************************** ************************************************** **
Interesting that the name was Irving at that time.

Jeff

[Kevin Statham]

Jeff - nice to hear from you.
The archivist made a mistake.
Without question, the 1851 Census shows IRWIN not Irvin. I suppose that with a quick glance it could be mistaken for Irvin - but any closer inspection rules out any doubt.
I'm back in the lakes at Easter ( our annual trip ). I intend to add photos of the older graves to the website.
Remind me, are William and Dorothy Irwin your Gt.Gt. Grandparents - as with us?

Kevin

[jirwin]

Hi Kevin;

You are probably right. The archivist's note was telling me what kind of material they have. She was probably not typing for accuracy.

I do believe that I am the great great grandson of William and Dorothy. My father Morris Irwin is the son of Victor Irwin (and Martha Kellett of Tockholes Lancashire). Victor’s father was William Irwin (married Ann Thompson) who was the son of William Irwin (the Lake District Fiddler).

At Brathey Church (near Ambleside) there is a grave stone that talks about my Great Grandfather, his wife and all their children. I know that my grandfather is buried in St Stephen’s Church yard in Tockholes. Greg Stephens, in his biography of William Irwin, notes that he is buried in Chapel Style church yard.

I was hoping to make a trip to England in the autumn. I have since found out that my daughter will need about 3000 pounds worth of dental work.<SIGH> I guess that my trip will be on hold for a while. I am hoping to do family history vicariously via people like you, Jenny, Greg and Geoffers (note the shameless plea for info<GRIN>)

I don’t know if you have seen this yet

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=1583232

Alfred Irwin was the son of William Irwin (junior). The address listed is the Howe. I remember going there as a message there as a little boy. My great aunts lived there.

Talk to you soon.

Jeff

[Kevin Statham]

Jeff - If I can help, I will.
My Granparents are buried at at Brathay and "unofficially" myy parents ashes are there too. We will be going again at Easter so give me a list and I will endevour to help where I can.
It's funny that you mention Thompson. One of my mums sisters (Anne McGarr) married Reg ( ?reginald) Thompson from Coniston.
Small world ?

my eMail is [email protected]

Tell your daughter that teeth are over rated - eat more soup !

Kevin

[Geoff Chew]

By the way, what does "Tuch tipist extrawdinair" mean?

Looks like "Touch typist extraordinaire", no doubt tongue in cheek! My own touch typing would probably come up with the same sort of result...

Geoff

[bob graham]

Sorry to resurrect what seems like an old thread but only just fallen over the westmorland site as i always assumed the langdales were in Cumberland.

Grandmother was a Greenop and i have 100 plus in the file but have never been able to connect the Langdale greenops to the Whitehaven greenops - until yesterday. There has been much discussion about John Irwin and John Irwin Greenop being born out of wedlock. If you check freebmd 1871 to 1889 you will find a whole family of "Irwin Greenop"s - can they all have been born out of wedlock. It was so striking I checked to see if there had been a female Irwin- male greenop marriage. No such luck.
Jenny - if you are still looking at this thread can i have a copy of the Irwin/ Greenop marriage cert to bob at bobgraham dot fsnet dot co dot uk. Your brother isnt Gerald is he?
bob