Parish Records pre-1837

[busyglen]

I wonder if someone could point me in the right direction please? I've been trawling Genuki trying to find the answer, but either I've missed it, or it's not there.

I am trying to find out who holds the PR's for Buckingham, Bucks. for 1842, and assumed it to be Aylesbury. Is this correct?

I'm having problems (who isn't) trying to find the parents of my gt.gt.grandfather John Jarvis who was born in Dunton, Bucks in 1823. I managed to obtain a floppy of the PR's from there from the Bucks FHS, but he wasn't listed.

However, what I am really trying to establish is whether he was illegitimate or not. I have a photocopy of his marriage to Emma Sophia Robbins in 1823 which was sent to me by another rellie a few years ago, and this states that his father was John GREEN! Having just studied this again, I have realised that this is also a hand-written copy, done in 1990. So....it is `possible' that the John Green was an error on the part of the person copying the entry out. In order to clarify this, I think I need to send for another cert. myself, but I don't know where to apply. I was going to try ringing around, but thought someone may know here.

Many thanks. :)

Glenys

[Geoffers]

Buckingham PRs are held by the Centre for Buckinghamshire Studies, see their web-site
http://www.buckscc.gov.uk/archives/index.stm

click on 'family history' and then 'parish registers' and you will get to this list:

http://www.buckscc.gov.uk/archives/parishes/index.stm


I have a photocopy of his marriage to Emma Sophia Robbins in 1823 which was sent to me by another rellie a few years ago, and this states that his father was John GREEN!
Odd for a pre-1837 marriage register entry to include this, was bride/groom a minor?

Geoffers

[Mythology]

Yes - he was aged 0. ;)

[busyglen]

Odd for a pre-1837 marriage register entry to include this, was bride/groom a minor?

Geoffers

Thanks for that information Geoffers. Thinking about it I should have been able to find it for myself!! |blush|

Yes, both bride and groom were shown as 19 years old, and John Jarvis was a soldier. He doesn't appear to have served for very long as when their son was born in 1846 John was shown as a Labourer. He later became a policeman in London, then returned to his old occupation as Labourer, I believe because of ill health. He died of a heart problem that he'd had for 2 years.

Thanks again for the info. :)

Glenys

[busyglen]

Yes - he was aged 0. ;)

Myth, :D

This is the father of the lad you checked out for me who married at 17, 4 days before his 18th birthday, but said he was 19!! And.....that his dad was deceased, when he was very much alive! :confused:

Seems to run in the family doesn't it?

Glenys

[Mythology]

Yes, I'd recognised who it was, Glenys - determined to make life difficult for you, aren't they? :D

I may have missed it, but I didn't see anything on the Bucks site about photocopies - whether or not they are able to provide them, and, if so, at what cost. As you have the church and the exact date of the 1842 marriage from the GRO copy, I would hope that it would not be too expensive, but if they either won't provide photocopies or the price seems excessive, if you don't mind waiting, you have my e-mail address - I will be going there sometime around Easter.

[busyglen]

Thanks for the offer Myth, but I have stumbled across a very helpful person at the Bucks. Local Studies Centre. I sent an email asking if they were able to send me a copy of the marriage cert. and asked how much. I gave a brief outline of why I was enquiring ie. possible illegitimacy and they came back with all sorts of information, some of which I have already established. They confirmed that the entry definately states John GREEN, so I now know where I am going. (Or not as the case may be!)
The entry is of poor quality so they are going to send me a copy foc which is really good of them.

They even looked for John's baptism in that area, but couldn't find him, but I already know that he was born in Dunton (according to Census) but he wasn't there. Sigh!!
Still, at least I am one step nearer....it would be nice to find out who his mother was!

Thanks again Myth. :)

Glenys

[Geoffers]

They even looked for John's baptism in that area, but couldn't find him, but I already know that he was born in Dunton (according to Census) but he wasn't there. Sigh!! Still, at least I am one step nearer....it would be nice to find out who his mother was!
If he was illegit, could his mum have gone into the local workhouse? Or was she in receipt of poor relief? Was there an examination to name the father?
(apologies if you've alrady gone through these)
Geoffers

[busyglen]

If he was illegit, could his mum have gone into the local workhouse? Or was she in receipt of poor relief? Was there an examination to name the father?
(apologies if you've alrady gone through these)
Geoffers

Actually Geoffers, I hadn't got around to working out the pro's and con's if he was definately illegitimate. The info. I received today seems to confirm this, so I am definately going to look at all angles. Thanks for pointing out the workhouse, although as I don't know her name, I would have to be looking for John Jarvis/Green. He was named Jarvis, which I assume was her name.

Thanks for giving me the ideas of where to go though, really appreciated.

Glenys

[Mythology]

"The entry is of poor quality so they are going to send me a copy foc which is really good of them."
:) :)
That's jolly decent of them - I haven't been there for about three or four years, glad to hear that they're still as helpful as they were when I was there, and hope you manage to nail him in the end.

[busyglen]

If he was illegit, could his mum have gone into the local workhouse? Or was she in receipt of poor relief? Was there an examination to name the father?
(apologies if you've alrady gone through these)
Geoffers

Geoffers, as your knowledge of these matters is much greater than mine, could you give me any pointers on the the above that you mentioned.

John Jarvis/Green was born in 1822/3, and although I have done some delving in Bucks (via Google, Genuki etc.) most of the main records seem to be from 1835ish onwards. A lot of the workhouses weren't established until then or later. Also, it doesn't mention illegitimate children as such....only that the children of families in the workhouse were kept apart most of the time.

IF John was illegitimate, and was in a Poor House/Workhouse why can't I find anything in the area of DUNTON, which is where he said he was born on the 1851 Census? Did he `know' he was born in Dunton, if so, where did he get that from. He's not in the PRs for there. I've tried looking up the Bastardy Laws, but can't find anything that is of any help. Am I barking up the wrong tree? Where or what should I be looking for?

Sorry, if I'm asking too many questions, I'm just not sure where to go for the answers.....if indeed I'll find any! :( |help|

Glenys

[Geoffers]

IF John was illegitimate, and was in a Poor House/Workhouse why can't I find anything in the area of DUNTON, which is where he said he was born on the 1851 Census? Did he `know' he was born in Dunton, if so, where did he get that from.
I've swapped your questions around as this is he easiest to answer.

There isn't much to Dunton and what there is is spread out. His mum may have given birth in Dunton parish, but lived nearer to another parish church and had him baptised there - e.g. Stewkley, Cublington, Hoggeston

His mum may have been shoved off somewhere else to give birth, but always maintained that her son was born in Dunton - her son would hardly be in a position to remember otherwise. Perhaps the father came from Dunton and mum wanted to make sure that a connection was maintained.

continued.....

[Geoffers]

part 2.......

As the 19th century progressed, baptisms sometimes occurred later in life (if at all). It is possible that he was baptised up to 20 odd years later.

Have you looked at the spread of the surname(s) locally? Are Jarvis and Green particularly common in any parishes in the area?


John Jarvis/Green was born in 1822/3, and although I have done some delving in Bucks (via Google, Genuki etc.) most of the main records seem to be from 1835ish onwards.The system of workhouses changed from 1834 - but many did exist before then. I'm not familiar with the survival of Buckinghamshire records, the best advice I can give is to check with Bucks Record Office to see what survives for the area, what workhouses existed and whether admission registers, Guardians accounts and the like survive. What other records for the parish exist other than the PRs? Any Vestry minutes, examinations, settlements, etc. Sadly, not all records have survived over the last two centuries - so you may draw blank. Have you tried to locate his army record, or if his appointment to the police survives? These should at least confirm date and place of birth
Geoffers

[busyglen]

Thanks so much for all this info Geoffers, it's of great help and has given me direction, which I really needed. Quite often I can't see the wood for the trees (or twigs on the branches ;) ) and miss the obvious places to go. Every relative I have researched, has not been simple...each one has needed a different direction, and has not followed a normal process, so I am clutching at straws all the time, and quite often following the wrong path. All good fun!!

I did try the police records, but couldn't trace anyone of his age during this period. The army record is the obvious one, but one that I am unable to follow at this moment. I will try again though. Also I have tried the 1851 Census for the spread of Jarvis/Green, but although there are some, none mean anything at present. It's a bit late for the period I want, but I will keep searching for clues.

Again, my thanks `Sir Geoffers' my knight in shining armour ;)

Glenys

PS. Today is my `unofficial birthday'. :)

[Geoffers]

John Jarvis/Green was born in 1822/3
I've just searched TNA's online catalogue for army discharge docs in WO121 and WO97. There are two that stand out:

WO97/353/2 - John GREEN, born Stowe, Buckinghamshire; served 14th Foot, discharged aged 46. Served 1803-1814

and

WO97/1115/80 - John JERVIS, born Calton Bedfordshire; served 23rd Foot, discharged aged 38. Served 1813-26.

The first chap might be getting on a bit to be your John's dad in 1822 (though not impossible). But I just wonder if a wandering soldier gave a local lass the glad eye, resulting in your John. As a passing thought, have you tried the Regimental Registers of Births 1761-1924 to see if your John's birth was registered there?

Geoffers

PS Happy official birthday, Ma'am

[busyglen]

That's certainly worth a look, thanks Geoffers! :)

I've just been through the Dunton PRs again, but no Green's that tie in. Only one family but wrong age group. No Jarvis either, so possibly a red herring.

I'll see what I can find out about the others. Thanks for your kindness. :)

Glenys

[Geoffers]

I've just been through the Dunton PRs again, but no Green's that tie in. Only one family but wrong age group.Although the wrong age group, they may be connected. Try searching a census index to see how many Greens and Jarvises were born in Dunton, Stewkley, Cublington, etc. Plot them out on a map and see if there is an obvious cluster anywhere.

With problems such as this, there isn't a simple 'eureka' moment - but rather an accumilation of evidence which allows you to work out what has probably happened and thus target specific sources to 'prove' what has happened.

Geoffers
(Though the frustration of not being able to see the wood for the trees can be extremely annoying - especially after tripping up on the umpteenth root).

[busyglen]

Geoffers
(Though the frustration of not being able to see the wood for the trees can be extremely annoying - especially after tripping up on the umpteenth root).

I know what you mean, my poor knees from constantly tripping over all those roots have left me black and blue! :(

Again many thanks Geoffers. I have already started going back over the 1851 Census index and pulling out all of the Jarvis/Green's. I did do `possible' ones over a year ago, but gave up as I started to lose my way again, and got disheartened. Since I received some exciting new information late last year, I have been spurred on to go back and search some more. Even more so now that you have given me some new ideas.

By the way, I didn't know about the Regimental Registers on 1837 online.... and I use it for searching BMD's too!! Must have been blind! Anyway, the couple of names that you gave me, don't seem to tie up. I'll hang on to them anyway...just in case.

A big |hug| from me for all the info.

Glenys