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jamos1
24-11-2005, 7:54 PM
I am trying to determine how I could locate the birth details of an ancestor who is shown in several census' as being born in "France (British Subject)". I have tried looking in the Overseas BMD section of the GRO Record Indexes but to no avail.

He is shown as aged 12 in the 1851 Census. No records can be found in the usual BMD Index files either. His age in other census records are consistent with a birth date around 1838-1839.

Any information on how to proceed would be most welcomed.

Geoffers
25-11-2005, 8:06 AM
Difficult, but to try and think of some possibilities, could you let us know some more detail please? The sort of thing would be:

Was the father in the army? If not in the army, was he in business (and if so what) or a diplomat?

Do you know where any siblings were born? Were they born oveseas too? Was he the parents' eldest child?

Where was his mother born?

If at all possible, type the full census entry.

Geoffers

jamos1
25-11-2005, 12:53 PM
Many thanks for the post Geoffers.

His father was named Thomas (Moulton) Knight who died on 30 Mar 1844 in Deptford (I have certificate). I believe he was christened in Manchester around 1811 (IGI). His mother (from the birth cert. of Elizabeth J Knight) was Jane Dane (or could be Darc, Dare, Danc - writing indistinct) born in Faversham, Kent. On George Knight's marriage certificate it shows his father as Thomas Moulton Knight, Engineer. I do not believe he was in the services and I cannot find any record in the Overseas BMD records. As far as I can tell, he was usually known as Thomas Knight.
I think that after Thomas Moulton Knight's death Jane re-married James Foley (can't find this in BMD records, though) and had Mary A and John A Foley in that second marriage. The 1851 Census shows:

HO107 / 1583 Folio 63 Page 47
James Foley Head Mar 38 Boilermaker Sedgley, Staffordshire
Jane Foley Wife Mar 37 Faversham, Kent
Caroline Foley Daur 12 Bloxwich, Staffordshire
Harriott Foley Daur 10 Scholar Bloxwich, Staffordshire
Mary A Foley Daur 3 Scholar Vauxhall, Surrey
John A Foley Son 8m Rotherhithe, Surrey
Thomas D Knight Stepson 14 Rivet Boy Faversham, Kent
George Knight Stepson 12 Scholar France (British Subject) <--
Elizabeth J Knight Stepdaur 9 Scholar Deptford, Kent

George went on to become a Boilermaker by trade (as per his step-father).

Any pointers you can give would be greatly appreciated.

uksearch
25-11-2005, 1:45 PM
I 'll take a look at the Manchester angle.

UK

Geoffers
25-11-2005, 8:29 PM
George and his parents aren't being very helpful.

Bearing in mind they lived in Kent, I wonder if George may have been born in France, but baptised in Kent? - or if George was born at Calais, or near the coast and returned soon after birth, even had his birth registered in England? Have you checked the GRO index for any obvious births?

Are the family in Kent for the 1841 census?

Do you know if George's dad was a self-employed engineer, or worked for a company? Could he have been engineer on a cross-channel ferry?

Geoffers

Peter Goodey
25-11-2005, 9:39 PM
Isn't there some sort of Return of English Chaplains in France that covers this period? Not one of the usual indexes I think - perhaps at the National Archives and possibly the FRC?

Does anyone know what I'm rambling on about? Obviously I don't! :confused:

uksearch
26-11-2005, 1:48 PM
Manchester Parish Church Baptism 14 Apr 1811
Thos Moulton son of Joseph & Eliz. KNIGHT

No much help I am afraid. The 1915 TD has two Joseph KNIGHTs a Pawnbroker at 159 Deansgate & a Victualler at 24 Cock-gate.

UK

Geoffers
26-11-2005, 2:51 PM
Isn't there some sort of Return of English Chaplains in France that covers this period?
TNA has some British baptisms:

Boulogne baptisms 1839-96 in RG33/39 - and further baptisms and burials 1834-39 in RG33/38 (indexed in RG33/161)
Calais and St.Omer baptisms 1817-47 in RG33/50 - also -
Calais baptisms 1839-78 in RG33/51
Le Havre baptisms 1817-43 in RG33/56
Paris baptisms 1831-56 in RG33/67

Geoffers

Peter Goodey
26-11-2005, 4:09 PM
"TNA has some British baptisms:"

I suppose that must have been the series I was thinking of. Thanks. I see that it's indexed. That should be handy.

jamos1
28-11-2005, 8:37 PM
Thanks to all for the replies.

I've one GRO entry left to try which is outside the expected date range - I've tried all others to no avail.

I do not currently have access to the 1841 Census for Kent, so have been unable to check out where the family were at that time. I'm aware this census name index and transcript is now available through subscription at The Genealogist.

Many thanks for the TNA references. I'm fairly new to genealogy and have not yet tried to use TNA but this may be a good reason to try.

With respect to the quoted Manchester TD, it mentions the 1915 TD - should this be 1815 TD as Joseph Knight would have been deceased in 1915.

Thanks once again for the assistance given.

Peter Goodey
28-11-2005, 8:52 PM
"I do not currently have access to the 1841 Census for Kent, so have been unable to check out where the family were at that time."

How sure are you that they were in Kent?

The 1851 census you quoted shows Harriott aged 10 born in Bloxwich, Staffordshire. Might this not hint that in 1841, the family might have been in Bloxwich?

Or have I just not been following the thread?

Geoffers
29-11-2005, 8:47 AM
"I do not currently have access to the 1841 Census for Kent, so have been unable to check out where the family were at that time."

How sure are you that they were in Kent?
The 1851 census you quoted shows Harriott aged 10 born in Bloxwich, Staffordshire. Might this not hint that in 1841, the family might have been in Bloxwich?
I think that relates to the sons of James Foley rather than his step-chldren. His wife would have been married to her first husband in 1841 and her children are shown as being born in France c.1839 and Deptford c1842. On this basis, I wondered if they might have been back in England in 1841, possibly somewhere in Kent and that this in turn might give a clue as to a parish register worth checking to see if French-born George had been baptised in England; and from the location, if any entry in the GRO index may in turn hint at George's birth being regsitered in England (his mum may have been in France for a short time and been 'caught short - so to speak).

Geoffers

Peter Goodey
29-11-2005, 9:16 AM
Ok Sorry. I'd dropped off to sleep here at the back of the class. 100 lines and a slap on the wrist for me.

jamos1
29-11-2005, 12:42 PM
I would add to Geoffers clarification by re-quoting from post #3 as follows:

Thomas D Knight Stepson 14 Rivet Boy Faversham, Kent
George Knight Stepson 12 Scholar France (British Subject) <-- direct ancestor
Elizabeth J Knight Stepdaur 9 Scholar Deptford, Kent

This shows the children either side of George were both born in Kent (albeit one in Faversham and the other in Deptford).

George's father, Thomas (Moulton) Knight died on 30 Mar 1844 in Deptford (I have certificate). The middle name, Moulton, appears on George's marriage certificate but does not appear on Thomas's death certificate. Thomas was christened on 14-Apr-1811 in Manchester (IGI and confirmed by member 'uksearch' post #7). The death certificate shows Thomas's age as 33, so I have a high confidence this is the correct person.

I think Geoffers is probably right when he says the mother may have been caught short in France.

I can only find 4 references to births of a George Knight in Kent around this time and these are (in case he were registered in England):

1839 Mar Eastry V 143 } Already tried and confirmed these
1839 Jun Sevenoaks V 379 } are not the correct entries
1839 Sep Milton V 325 } (father not Thomas)

1840 Mar Dartford V 94 <-- Still to try

I have the birth certificate for George's sister Elizabeth J Knight who was born on 21-Jul-1841 and there is a 3 year age difference shown in the 1851 census (see above), so depending on birth dates and dates of registration, Dartford may just be conceivable. Ages for George Knight in later census sheets (1861-1901) are consistent (except 1871) and would put the birth around 1838-9 though.

Again, I really appreciate the help you are giving.

Wirral
29-11-2005, 1:02 PM
...Dartford may just be conceivable. .

Wow, you are adventurous!. Looking for the place of conception as well! |laugh1|

Geoffers
29-11-2005, 1:55 PM
1840 Mar Dartford V 94 <-- Still to try
I have the birth certificate for George's sister Elizabeth J Knight who was born on 21-Jul-1841 and there is a 3 year age difference shown in the 1851 census (see above), so depending on birth dates and dates of registration, Dartford may just be conceivable.
Well, if the birth was registered in March quarter 1840, he could have been born at the end of 1839, which would mean that he is likely to be shown as 11/12 in the 1851 cenus.

Applying for the certificate would be a leap of faith, for which I'd keep my fingers crossed. Before you do, it may be worth trying to access the 1841 / 1851 census to see how many George Knights there were born around 1838-40 in Kent. If you can find your chap and only the three that you've already shown are not related, then it increases the chance that the Dartford March 1840 entry might be of use. If there is at least one extra George Knight, born anywhere near Dartford, then that would lessen the chance.

It's otherwise a case of either rying TNA or the parish registers, for which I'd suggest first trying the place where Elizabeth was born

Geoffers

jamos1
30-11-2005, 8:14 PM
Thanks Geoffers. Good tip to check the other Georges.

I've just scanned the 1851 Census and there are 8 occurrences of George Knight's born in Kent between 1837 and 1841. None of them are from the Dartford Registration District so it may just be possible that the one I want IS at Dartford. To find my George Knight, I enter his name, Birth Country as France and birth date as 1839 +/- 2 and he's the only one that pops up.

I phoned the Gravesend Register Office yesterday and gave them as many details as I had and they are looking into the Dartford registration and will only send a certificate if the mother and father match my known criteria. In any other case, they will give me a call. That could take up to 10 days and I'll re-post to advise status once received.

Geoffers
01-12-2005, 8:30 AM
I phoned the Gravesend Register Office yesterday and gave them as many details as I had and they are looking into the Dartford registration and will only send a certificate if the mother and father match my known criteria.
It is a long shot, but my fingers will remain firmly crossed.
Geoffers

jamos1
07-12-2005, 9:04 PM
I received confirmation today that the George Knight registered at Dartford is NOT the one I am looking for.

The next step is to check the 1841 Census and when I have sufficient time I'll look into the registers at the TNA which Geoffers mentioned in Post #8.

Thanks to all for your ideas and assistance.