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Robin
22-08-2005, 7:51 PM
COR/1/3/28 dated 22 Dec 1914



Inquest on Oliver Lydia MOORE of Upper Walland Farm, Wadhurst ,daughter of Ellen MOORE, widow, 3 years and 3 months; found drowned in a pond close to Brinkers Lane, Wadhurst.

Verdict: Wilful murder by her mother


Found on the A2A site
Anybody got anything on this one

lucretia
23-08-2005, 11:17 PM
Yes Robin I do have that one, and so does MH I sent it for the newsletter. Will post it to forum.

emma@esh
11-09-2005, 8:04 PM
Records of the Coroner of the Western [LEWES] District
Catalogue Ref. COR/1

[Access Conditions]
Closed for 75 years from the last date of a document.

FILE - MOORE - ref. COR/1/3/28 - date: 22nd December 1914
Olive Lydia of Upper Walland Farm, Wadhurst, daughter of Ellen Moore, widow, 3 years 3 months: found drowned in a pond close to Brinkers Lane, Wadhurst, wilful murder by her mother Ellen Moore.

THE COURIER JANUARY 8th 1915

THE WADHURST MURDER CASE

Another remand.

Mrs. Ellen Moore, of Walthamstow was again before the magistrates at Mark Cross on Tuesday morning charged with the wilful murder of her three year old daughter, Olive Lydia Moore, at Wadhurst on December 17th.
The Magistrates present were Mr. H.G. Dixon [in the chair], Admiral Finnis, and Mr. J. Hallett.
The accused woman was recently staying with relatives at Wadhurst with her daughter. The body of the little girl was found in a pond near the village, and at the inquest a formal verdict of “Wilful Murder” was returned. When Mrs. Moore was before the Tunbridge Wells magistrates recently she was found to be insane.
Mrs Moore appeared in court at about noon. In charge of a wardress.
The delay was due to the fact that court awaited the arrival of a prosecuting solicitor from the treasury, but after about an hour an intimation was received to the effect that another remand was desirable.
Supt. Criddle thereupon formally applied for a remand until next Tuesday.
The application was granted.

emma@esh
11-09-2005, 8:13 PM
THE COURIER JANUARY 13th 1915.

Mrs. Ellen Moore of Walthamstow and recently staying at Wadhurst, made her fourth appearance before the magistrates at Mark Cross on Tuesday to answer the charge of wilfully murdering her child, Olive Lydia Moore, aged three at Wadhurst on December 17th.
Mrs. Elizabeth Annie Puttick of upper Walland farm, Wadhurst stated that the accused was her sister. She had been living with witness for thirteen days prior to December 17th.. Her husband had died a few weeks earlier previously. Accused took her little girl to Wadhurst with her. She had threatened to commit suicide. She had told witness that she [witness] was too good to be bothered with her, and that she had better disappear into a mad-house. She said her life was worthless, and witness reasoned with her, after which she promised not to try to take her life. On December 17th her sister went out with the child: saying she was going for a walk to Wadhurst to give the child a little fresh air. Accused was strange in her manner and stood at the door looking at witness for some time before she went out. The child was about three years and three months old.
Henry Stephen Puttick dairyman of Upper Walland Farm, Wadhurst, stated that he had left the farm on the afternoon of December 17th for the purpose of taking milk to Wadhurst. He overtook Mrs. Moore and Olive in the first meadow on the way to the main road. She said it was very muddy, and that the child did not like the mud, as she would get her boots dirty. Witness gave the pair a lift as far as the main road, and they went towards Wadhurst, witness taking the opposite direction. While in the milk cart the accused said Olive wanted a little exercise and that she would walk into Wadhurst with her. Witness saw Mrs. Moore again that day about 4.15 pm. Near the Belgian hospital at Wadhurst. The little girl was still with her, and they were walking towards Durgates. Mrs Moore and the child did not return to the farm at the expected time, and witness went out between seven and eight o’clock to look for her, but without success. He thought she might have gone into Tunbridge Wells. Where she had an uncle living., or that she might have gone to Eastbourne where she had another relative, or back to Walthamstow. Witness said his wife thought it was strange she did not return, but did not attach any particular importance to the matter. However he informed the police and also wired to Tunbridge Wells. Latter on he was informed that a glove had been found, and he thought it looked like the little girls glove.

emma@esh
11-09-2005, 8:14 PM
Edward James Thomas of Ingoldsby Cottage, Wadhurst, a greengrocer and general dealer, gave evidence that when driving through Wadhurst High Street on the evening of December 17th, about 6 p.m., the accused, who had the child with her, asked him the way to Walland Lane. He did not know what place she wanted-Upper Walland House or the farm- but directed her as best he could. In response to a request by her , he gave her and the child a lift as far as Brinker’s Lane. When she got into the cart, accused handed him a bottle wrapped in paper. She stated that it was brandy and she wanted it for Christmas.
Arthur John Lockyer, a painter from mount pleasant, Wadhurst, stated that he saw the accused , who was in an excited state, at Wadhurst between 8 and 8.30 p.m. on December 17th. He recognised Mrs. Moore, because he had been working at the farm. When he saw her she was walking from the direction of Brinker’s Lane. Which was on the Ticehurst road. Mrs. Moore was swinging herself about, and seemed very excited , she was alone.
Thomas Frederick Powell, a grocer’s assistant to Messrs O.T.Corke and Sons, at 2. Mount Pleasant Wadhurst, said a lady with a child entered the shop at about 4.15 p.m. and purchased a bottle of spirits and some bananas. She paid for the things with a pound note. Witness did not know the woman when she entered the shop, but she told him she was Mrs. Moore.
An empty brandy bottle. The neck of which was broken, was produced in court, and witness stated that it was similar to bottles of spirit sold at the shop.

emma@esh
11-09-2005, 8:16 PM
P.C. Tucker of the Tunbridge Wells Borough police, stated that he was on duty in High-street at four o’clock on the morning of December 19th . He saw prisoner wandering and said to her. “What are you doing here?” she replied, “You had better take me to the Police Station. I murdered my child two days ago, and threw her in a pond at Wadhurst. I lost my husband about a month ago. He died of consumption , and after his death I went to Eastbourne to stay with a sister, and from there I went to Wadhurst to my other sister. I left there on Thursday afternoon [December 17th] with the intention of murdering my child and then committing suicide. I had already bought two penny-worth of oxalic acid from a chemist at Wadhurst. I took hold of my child to strangle her , but my nerves failed me. I had got a bottle of brandy with me, which I had bought, so I had a drink, and that seemed to buck me up a bit. I then took hold of my child and strangled her with my hands and threw her into a pond “Witness took her to the Police Station, and on the way she said “May I take your arm? I am done up. I have had nothing to eat or drink since I left my sisters on Thursday.” Prisoner was in a more or less collapsed state.
P.C.Knight said he made a search for the child. At about 9.45 a.m. on December 20th. He went to a pond just off Brinker’s Lane, Wadhurst. Where he saw the body of a child partly floating in the water, about three ft. from the bank and in about 2ft. of water. He recovered the body from the pond and found it fully dressed except for the right- hand glove which was missing. The coat was unfastened with the exception of the top button. The other two had been torn off, and were found by the witness on the bank of the pond. Portions of the cloth adhering to the two buttons were dry. Witness also found an empty brandy bottle [the one produced] with the top knocked off. It was floating in the pond. The pond was about 20ft. Long by 25ft. Wide, and had bushes on three sides of it. To approach the pond from the road one had to open a gate and cross a field. On Friday December 18th a childs right-hand glove, a purse containing 18s.3¾d., a piece of paper, on which was written: Thomas Henry Moore, interred in grave No. 183 “D” ground, were taken to him, by Charles Giles, and were identified by Mr. Hy. Stephen Puttick the same day as being the property of Mrs. Moore.

emma@esh
11-09-2005, 8:18 PM
Charles Giles, a blacksmith of Ashurst Wood, East Grinstead, stated that on December 18th , when he was living at Wadhurst, he was going along Brinkers Lane, Wadhurst, about 11 a. m.. He was carrying some meat in a parcel, which came undone. He went to the side of the road to do it up. This was opposite to the pond in the lane. He did not know at the time that there was another pond across the field, but he know understood there was, in a holly hedge near the first-mentioned pond witness found a childs purse and glove, and handed them over to P.C.Knight.
Dr. Charles Herbert Fazan, of Wadhurst stated that he was called to Brinkers Lane on Sunday, December 20th. He found the body of a child lying at the side of the pond. Its age being apparently four to five years old. The child was wearing a jacket and two of the buttonholes had been stretched in a direction contrary to to the ordinary pull of the button. The expression on the face of the child was tranquil and the eyes and mouth were closed. The woollen scarf [produced] was folded round the childs neck. It was not knotted but simply looped over the shoulder. Underneath the scarf was an imitation pearl necklace with very fragile glass beads. None of which were crushed. Nor were there any marks of the necklace on the skin of the neck. The childs bonnet was hanging round the neck by the string: here was no compression at all. The only marks on the body was a slight scratch on the right eyelid. Which was probably caused after death.. The childs right hand was gloved and her right hand bare, and the thumbs of both hands were turned in towards the palms. The limbs were bent and the body rigid. There were no signs whatever of pressure on the throat. Witness had since made a post mortem examination, and found that the child was very well clothed and nourished. Looking much older than the years stated [Three Years and Three months]. Considering the state of the weather, it was impossible to say how long the body had been in the water. The body was nearly frozen. The conclusion he came to was that the child had died from the combined effects of drowning and shock. He could find no evidence whatever of either strangulation or poisoning.
P.- Sergt. Edgeler, of Mark Cross, stated that at 5 p.m. on Monday December 21st, he saw prisoner at Tunbridge Wells police station, and said to her “am going to take you to Mark Cross on a charge of murder.” He conveyed her to Mark Cross and charged her with the murder. She replied “I have swallowed a ring, so that I may die.”
This concluded the evidence, and prisoner, who said nothing throughout the case , was committed for trial at the assizes.

from Rosemaries records

missleisha
06-11-2010, 11:48 PM
Is there any more updated information on this Case? I am looking for information on Ellen ( was she/when was she released from Broadmoor Asylum...did she remarry? date of death and any and all information on her son Stanley Thomas Moore brn: 1908. thank you ~Leisha

hepzibah
07-11-2010, 10:35 AM
what a tragic event. did the lady have other children at the time of her husbands death? and was she commited to asylum on the grounds of insanity, or of temporary insanity, due to grief and probably exhaustion, after nursing her husband? i feel almost as sorry for her, as for the little girl.

georgiep
07-11-2010, 10:53 AM
Original post said Oliver...

georgiep

Geoffers
07-11-2010, 11:58 AM
Original post said Oliver...

Probably a typing error - the entry in Access to Archives can be found here (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=179-cor1-ead_1-1&cid=-1#-1)


Is there any more updated information on this Case? I am looking for information on Ellen ( was she/when was she released from Broadmoor Asylum...did she remarry? date of death and any and all information on her son Stanley Thomas Moore brn: 1908

Welcome to the B-G forums

Wadhurst History Society - wadhurst.info/whs/ has a newsletter - Newsletter No.9 (Jan 2006) Page 4 has the detail already posted above

A short update appears in newsletter No.10 on Page 7 - wadhurst.info/whs/newsletters/whs10/page7.htm
It includes names of relatives of Ellen MOORE who may possibly have taken in her son.

Finding out what happened to Ellen may be difficult for you from your location. Once detained in Broadmoor, her release on licence would have been at the discretion of the Home Secretary. Some records relating to Broadmoor are held at The National Archives and may be subject to a period of closure. It may well be the case that she was not released.

Searching freebmd for marriages of Sidney T MOORE brings up a lot of hits from 1926-1945, none of which stand out as obvious possibilities..........and that's assuming he kept his name, he may have been adopted.

In your shoes, as a first step, I would be inclined to try contacting the Wadhurst History Society to see if anything is known locally.

Jeuel
07-11-2010, 3:32 PM
Broadmoor patients' archives are at the Berkshire Records Office in Reading, so I'd contact them. Even if they can't open the records they might be able to give you some information about whether she was released or remained there.

missleisha
08-11-2010, 2:45 AM
Hi Hepzibah...from the information I have from the 1911 census it states a son Stanley Thomas More age 2 born in walthamstow essex...other information states that she was found to be certified insane and removed to Broadmoor Criminal Lunatic asylum on
12 Feb 1915?...consequently the case would not come before the court. Any more information you may come across in your travels could be gratefully accepted. Nice to meet you~Leisha

missleisha
08-11-2010, 2:51 AM
Jeuel..thank you so much for doing this for me...I do feel my hands ared tied being in CA...More information that I have that may help is....."in the case of ellen moore (34), who was indicted for the murder of Olive Lydia Moore at Wadhurst 17th dec 1914 last, Counsel stated that the woman had been certified insane and removed to broadmoor Criminal Lunatic Asyulum,by order of the Secretary of Sttae on the 12th February (1915?). Consequently the case would not come before the court." Thank you ~Leisha

missleisha
08-11-2010, 2:59 AM
Hi Geoffers...wondering if you have a current or updated email for the wadhurst history society...my emails have all come back as "undeliverabe"....~Leisha

Geoffers
08-11-2010, 7:16 AM
I don't have any e-mail contact details for the society, their web-site does include telephone numbers and a postal address for various society officials.

The webmaster of Wadhurst.info which acts as a gateway may possibly be able to supply an e-mail contact?

emma@esh
08-11-2010, 2:14 PM
Hi all

I was researching this story sometime ago. I am part of the family history group within WHS - although have not been involved for a while. I will look at my research and see if I can help further.

Emma ☺

missleisha
14-11-2010, 7:30 PM
Hi Emma...any followup on the wadhurst murder? I'm extra super curious...the people in this article are my great grandparents...thanks...let me know what I can do to help in the research...I'm stuck at this point....~Leisha

emma@esh
15-11-2010, 9:45 AM
Hi Emma...any followup on the wadhurst murder? I'm extra super curious...the people in this article are my great grandparents...thanks...let me know what I can do to help in the research...I'm stuck at this point....~Leisha

Hi Leisha

Nothing yet. It is so hard to research as you come forward in time, what with the 100 year/75 year/50 year privacy rules. Have you contacted Berkshire record office to see if they will give you a release date for Ellen if they have one? I will keep thinking.

georgiep
15-11-2010, 10:32 AM
Don't forget folks , the census taken between 1910 & 1912 is subject to copyright etc and any listing could
mean loss of your membership.

georgiep

missleisha
16-11-2010, 1:11 PM
Hi Emma...Thank you for the information,,,I have not contacted Berkshire records office as of yet but I will now put it on my list. Thank You...kind of hoping that someone out there knows these people or about this event...my family surprised I know about this bit of history and not talking...~Leisha

auburn
16-11-2010, 4:38 PM
How strange!
I was reading this sad but interesting thread when I realised that a name from my own family tree appears-although it does not help your search. Dr Charles Fazan, who examined the body of the child, was married to Fanny Slater, a descendant of my gggg grandfather Edward Ayling.
What a tragic story for all concerned.
Auburn

emma@esh
22-11-2010, 2:11 PM
Hi Auburn

I have the inscription from his headstone if you do not have it.

auburn
22-11-2010, 4:38 PM
Hi Auburn

I have the inscription from his headstone if you do not have it.
Hello Emma
That would be brilliant!
Thankyou

Auburn

missleisha
03-12-2010, 4:43 PM
Hi Auburn.. I think this is a great piece of information! would love to see the inscription that emma sent to you...I think this is great! ~Leisha

auburn
04-12-2010, 3:21 PM
Hi Auburn.. I think this is a great piece of information! would love to see the inscription that emma sent to you...I think this is great! ~Leisha

Hi Leisha
You're right-it is great how one thing leads to another like this! Once I have the inscription details I will make sure they appear on this thread.
The Fazan family were very interesting-war heroes, doctors, a distict administrator in Kenya. Charles himself was the son of a London butcher and his wife Fanny(my relative) was also the daughter of a London butcher.
best wishes
Auburn

missleisha
04-12-2010, 4:35 PM
I will be looking forward to seeing it! ~great to meet you! ~Leisha

dollyupretty
18-04-2013, 3:28 PM
Hello,

I found out about Ellen and Stanley, and came across this post, and saw that it wasn't resolved and for future researchers of this family i thought i'd share my findings.

Ellen Moore died 1918 Easthampstead, Berkshire, England whilst at the Asylum ,age 38yrs

Stanley Thomas Moore died 6th August 1924 age 15 years old , and was buried 11th August 1924 in Langney Cemetery Eastbourne, East sussex, i have his grave number if anyone wants it. i live round the corner so i'm going to go visit soon and see if theres a gravestone, i know it's a consecrated common grave so unsure whether it'll be marked for him.

It's very tragic event really. Also Thomas Henry Moore was a Plasterer.

hope that helps some searchers x