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maggie-may
11-04-2013, 9:55 PM
Hi all.

I am researching my Grandmother's family (Wilson) and almost immediately have hit a brick wall! I managed to find nan on a 1911 census age 19 yrs living with her married aunt & family by the name of Rowden. They are living in Islington UK. It states the aunt, Frances Jane Rowden nee Wilson as being born in France. It also says British by parentage. I have checked all the BMD records in the UK incase Frances was indeed born there but was registered here, but there appears to be no sign of her recorded birth. I checked the marriage records too but again there is nothing registered in the UK. It has been suggested that being she was born in France it's possible that she married there too.

I am hoping that someone on this site maybe able to check the French registers for me? I know it's a big ask, but I would be so grateful if anyone out there could be of assistance. The details are as follows.

Birth: Frances Jane Wilson 1875c France (have no idea which region) Father's name would have been George & mother was Julia Frances Wilson nee Cully.

Marriage 1893c to James Rowden a French Polisher born in St Lukes. London. UK

Thank you all for taking the time to read this. I really would appreciate any help/advice on offer.

Megan Roberts
11-04-2013, 10:04 PM
Without wishing to be a harbinger of doom; something at the back of my mind is telling me that there is no central /national registration system in France.

I did a quick check of British births registered overseas (e.g. at embassies) and can't see anything.

Megan Roberts
11-04-2013, 10:12 PM
George Wilson and Julia Frances Cully married Qtr Jul 1857 St Martins in the Fields Vol 1A page 537

t@nya
12-04-2013, 10:15 AM
Without wishing to be a harbinger of doom; something at the back of my mind is telling me that there is no central /national registration system in France.

I did a quick check of British births registered overseas (e.g. at embassies) and can't see anything.

There isn't. I have French ancestors and have searched the registers online. You have to search each place individually, though they are indexes for each register (they are indexed by decade I think). Assuming that register is online that is. The ones my ancestors are in is, but I don't know about the rest of French.

Even having a approximate date, it's going to be a monumental task.

maggie-may
12-04-2013, 5:21 PM
Hi All.
Thank you for replying to my post. So much for a brick wall! It looks as though I've happened on a concrete jungle :)
I had a feeling there would be a high possibility of not be able to resolve the France link. It's so frustrating, can't even fathom out why the ancestors would have been in France to begin with! Thank you Megan for the marriage details. I did manage to find that entry a short while ago. I am desperate to find the one for Frances & James but it looks as though I may have to put this line of the research to bed. Thank you all for your help & advice though. Much appreciated. Maggie

madmickbiker
05-02-2015, 9:49 PM
Are you still researching Frances Wilson? Frances Jane Rowden is my gt grandmother. She is not French!

Elaine Wilson



Hi all.

I am researching my Grandmother's family (Wilson) and almost immediately have hit a brick wall! I managed to find nan on a 1911 census age 19 yrs living with her married aunt & family by the name of Rowden. They are living in Islington UK. It states the aunt, Frances Jane Rowden nee Wilson as being born in France. It also says British by parentage. I have checked all the BMD records in the UK incase Frances was indeed born there but was registered here, but there appears to be no sign of her recorded birth. I checked the marriage records too but again there is nothing registered in the UK. It has been suggested that being she was born in France it's possible that she married there too.

I am hoping that someone on this site maybe able to check the French registers for me? I know it's a big ask, but I would be so grateful if anyone out there could be of assistance. The details are as follows.

Birth: Frances Jane Wilson 1875c France (have no idea which region) Father's name would have been George & mother was Julia Frances Wilson nee Cully.

Marriage 1893c to James Rowden a French Polisher born in St Lukes. London. UK

Thank you all for taking the time to read this. I really would appreciate any help/advice on offer.

topleycolin
12-05-2015, 9:31 AM
Maggie-May, I'd love to help you.I speak completely fluent French and have searched lots of French records for my own anglo-French ancestors & relatives. I have come across any amount of English & Irish surnames including 1 or 2 Wilsons. The records are free and most are the actual microfilms of the registers. Do you know the area of France at all?
I should add that I've found that some British families didn't bother to register with the French authorities.
All the best, Colin

madmickbiker
12-05-2015, 9:53 AM
As I have already stated.....Frances Jane Rowden (nee Wilson) is NOT French. She was born in a slum in Clerkenwell, London. She lied about being French because she was actually already married to someone else. Her illigitimate daughter was my grandmother. I know all about her. So forget the French link because there is none. I was fed this lie for decades until I discovered the truth.



Maggie-May, I'd love to help you.I speak completely fluent French and have searched lots of French records for my own anglo-French ancestors & relatives. I have come across any amount of English & Irish surnames including 1 or 2 Wilsons. The records are free and most are the actual microfilms of the registers. Do you know the area of France at all?
I should add that I've found that some British families didn't bother to register with the French authorities.
All the best, Colin

topleycolin
12-05-2015, 10:03 AM
Maggie-May, in the 1901 census, Frances J. Rowden's place of birth is stated to be France & her nationality French. She was stated as being 29 years old thus born in 1871-72 and was a fur machinist. The 1911 census states she was then aged 36 and married to James for 18 years. It just gives France as place of birth. I've found these age & date discrepancies to be quite common even in educated families. A George Lupton Wilson was born in Paris between 1866 - 70. A Louise Wilson and a Benjamin Wilson were born in Paris in the same period.
Colin

madmickbiker
12-05-2015, 10:13 AM
Please don't continue trying to justify info iro my gt grandmother that is erroneous. She was NEVER married to Rowden, he was her lover. Their child was my grandmother. I have all the certificates, photos & authentication. As I have already said, she lied to her lover about her origins. She lied to her family too. She never was French. None of the Wilson family are French. Only the Rowdens had Huguenot origins. She was a Roman Catholic living in sin with a bastard child whilst her true husband was in the army. End of story.

topleycolin
12-05-2015, 10:25 AM
erroneous message

gortonboy
12-05-2015, 11:57 PM
Please don't continue trying to justify info iro my gt grandmother that is erroneous. She was NEVER married to Rowden, he was her lover. Their child was my grandmother. I have all the certificates, photos & authentication. As I have already said, she lied to her lover about her origins. She lied to her family too. She never was French. None of the Wilson family are French. Only the Rowdens had Huguenot origins. She was a Roman Catholic living in sin with a bastard child whilst her true husband was in the army. End of story.

it would be better to post the information you have,and therefore back up your claim with evidence,,,rather than ranting at someone that the information they have is wrong.
We are all here to help each other with their family history,,,it does no good to simply tell someone they are wrong. Rather it would be more helpful,and interesting for us all if you could elaborate on your story,by providing the relevant documents/facts that you say you have.

topleycolin
13-05-2015, 6:31 AM
gortonboy, thanks for this, you put it better than I could. I was so taken aback by the vehemence of that posting that I considered cancelling my membership of this site.
Thanks again,
Colin

Lesley Robertson
13-05-2015, 7:07 AM
Elaine, surely you will agree that when family myths arise, it's because family members have blindly accepted what they have been told without checking the evidence themselves? You say that you have evidence, so would you please provide the citations - it's standard research practice, even when the discussion isn't controversial.

Colin, were other members of the family also claiming to have been born in France? What was the Father's occupation that could have taken him and his family across the Channel? Have you found her in earlier census returns?
And would you really walk out of a club involving hundreds because you don't like the reaction of one?

I must say that the last time we had such conflicting evidence, it turned out that cousins were involved - same name, same birth year... And descendants who came to enjoy the challenge of sorting it out.

topleycolin
13-05-2015, 8:26 AM
Lesley, this has nothing to do with me or my kin, I just offered to help the original poster Maggie-Mae.
As for cancelling, I did say I only considered it. I belong to quite a few groups of this kind but that was the 1st time I've come across such a vehement response.
I think I'll just wind my neck in as we used to say in the RAF many years ago.

christanel
13-05-2015, 9:48 AM
Taking the 1911 census as a guide there is a marriage of a Frances J Wilson Holborn reg district (which includes Clerkenwell) September 1/4 1891 to to either a Michael Schroers or a George Roberts.
There is a birth reg of a Frances Jane Wilson Dec 1/4 1871 Holborn registration district.
1881 has this Frances Wilson age 9 born Clerkenwell
RG11 Piece 357 Folio 23 Page 39
9 Lloyds Row St James Clerkenwell
Alfred Wilson 33 Waiter at Inn. born london
Frances Wilson 40 shirt collar maker, London Hammersmith
Eliza Wilson 15 no occ. Bloomsbury, London
Frances Wilson 9 daughter, Clerkl, London
Alfred Wilson 7 Islington
William Wilson 3 Clerkl, London
Jane Wilson 19 daughter in law, (stepdaughter?) no occ. London Tottenham CT Road
Jane Morley 54 boarder widow

Elaine, it would be very helpful if you could confirm, or not, my findings. All our members love to help each other and sometimes we have to accept that what our ancestors did and said was not always the truth. As Lesley has said, if you have the census and birth and marriage records could you post them please.

Christina

ps. Don't even consider 'pulling your neck in' Colin you were only doing what any of our members do - giving generous help to others. :smile5:

madmickbiker
13-05-2015, 1:29 PM
The only person I will give details to, if she contacts again, is the original poster Maggie May.
Unlikely, so suggest you remove my posts and me too.

christanel
13-05-2015, 8:39 PM
Hello Elaine
It is good that you are willing to provide maggie-may with the details and sources of your research.
May I suggest you remain a member of the Brit-Gen forums as this is the only method of contact she has at the moment.
We do have a private messaging system (pm) Click on maggie-may's name and choose private message from the drop down menu. This allows you to provide the poster with information you are unwilling (or our AUP forbids) to share publicly.

Christina

maggie-may
18-05-2015, 9:15 AM
Hi Christina.
Goodness me, I have just seen these posts! My computer has been out of action for some while. I haven't taken all the posts in yet but I will answer your reply. The family you are referring to looks to be a different family? I will go and find the census I had taken the information from. I started out looking into my Grandmother's family who I know very little about other than her parents, siblings etc. My Grandmother was Frances Fanny Wilson born in Wandsworth in 1892. She had a brother George born in Fulham in 1890. Their parents were George Digby Wilson and Mary Ann Dutton who married in 1888. I can only find them on a Census ? living at the correct address but a mistake has their surname down as Hart! But it's definitely my family. George Digby Wilson was a wore worker. Trying to track my Nan I found in 1911 that she was 19yrs old and staying with the Rowden family in Islington. She was a book folder. Her relationship is down as Neice. I took this to mean of Frances Jane Rowden, who according to the census was born in France. That is my link to the Rowden family. Yes, I did query why this lady was born in France to see if it would give me any further info on my Nan's family. Nan married in 1912 and it stated her father was deceased. I have been trying to find his death certificate to see what happened to him, to no avail.
The family listed above are possibly related to my Wilson's as I have come across the place name, Clerkenwell in my research. George, nan's father was born Clerkenwell 1858 but the names listed above do not match with the info I have collected. That's not to say there isn't a link, I just haven't found it yet!
Madmickbiker, please don't leave the site. It would be great to find out why my nan was with the Rowdens. Apologies if my original posting upset you. It was never meant to cause these problems. I was just looking for help re the connection.
Many thanks to everyone who has replied. Very much appreciated.
Kind regards.
Maggie.

PS. Almost scared to say I am still looking for my Great Grandfather's (George Digby Wilson's) death cert. Who died between 1892 -1912.

maggie-may
18-05-2015, 9:35 AM
Hi all.
Correction to my last posting. My Grandfather, George Digby Wilson was a wire worker and the census I mentioned with them under the name of Hart was 1891. The family were living in Wardley Street, Wandsworth, where nan was born a year later.
Maggie

How do I know if I have any PM's? I am still pretty new to the site :)

maggie-may
18-05-2015, 9:50 AM
Hi Madmickbiker.
Please get in touch again.
Maggie

christanel
18-05-2015, 10:08 AM
Hello Maggie
If someone has sent you a pm you should get an email telling you and when you log into BG a box will come up saying you have a pm. Then click on 'Notifications' in the blue bar at the top of the page. Choose one of the two options from the drop down menu.

To make sure you receive email notification to any posts you make on threads started by you or others click on Quick Links in the blue bar at the top of the page, click on User CP from the drop down menu. On the next page scroll down until you see a box which says Default Thread Subscription Mode. Make sure that the option "Instantly using email" is showing in the box.

Christina

christanel
19-05-2015, 2:34 AM
Hi all.
Correction to my last posting. My Grandfather, George Digby Wilson was a wire worker and the census I mentioned with them under the name of Hart was 1891. The family were living in Wardley Street, Wandsworth, where nan was born a year later.
Maggie

:)

Can you give us the reference for this entry as I am having difficulty finding it on ancestry. I can see it on FMP but can't access it as I don't have a sub. So piece, folio and page number will be a big help.

Christina