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Pete85
14-09-2009, 8:08 PM
Not sure if I'm going to find out much but it's worth a try. People on here have unearthed lots before.

I'm looking to find details of John Henderson BROWN, who moved to Liverpool from Sweden in 1815 and then his father Henry HENDERSON. John changed his name from John HENDERSON when he arrived in the UK and later married Sidney Jones in 1848. His father was Henry HENDERSON. I don't know if he also came over from Sweden.

I suppose my first thought we be to locate passenger lists from 1815, however both John and Henry are listed as Mariners on John's marriage certificate, so how John came over, I wouldnt know.

I was also advised to contact the Swedish Seamen's Church in Liverpool, so I will be emailing/writing to them in the near future.

Any help appreciated.

christanel
14-09-2009, 9:36 PM
Hi Pete85
I located John Brown and Sidney Jones on the same marriage page on FreeBMD and just to get some background I looked at the 1851 census for a John Brown born Sweden. The only one that came up in Liverpool was a lodger, mariner, unmarried. HO107, Piece 2181, Folio 610. If this is your John Brown where is his wife Sidney? I haven't found her as yet. Do you have them in the censuses after their marriage?
I am just trying to get my bearings on this one so the more we know the easier it is.
How do you know he came over from Sweden age 4 in 1815? You have the marriage certificate? Is that where you got his father's name?
Here endeth the inquisition.:)
Christina

Pete85
14-09-2009, 9:58 PM
Hi Pete85
I located John Brown and Sidney Jones on the same marriage page on FreeBMD and just to get some background I looked at the 1851 census for a John Brown born Sweden. The only one that came up in Liverpool was a lodger, mariner, unmarried. HO107, Piece 2181, Folio 610. If this is your John Brown where is his wife Sidney? I haven't found her as yet. Do you have them in the censuses after their marriage?
I am just trying to get my bearings on this one so the more we know the easier it is.
How do you know he came over from Sweden age 4 in 1815? You have the marriage certificate? Is that where you got his father's name?
Here endeth the inquisition.:)
Christina

A few questions, I'll try to answer them all..

How do you know he came over from Sweden age 4 in 1815? You have the marriage certificate?
I don't have it, but someone on here was kind enough to look it up at Liverpool Library. Written in the margin it said "John BROWN is a Swede & exchanged his name of HENDERSON for BROWN on his first coming to England in 1815, since when he has been known by that name"

Is that where you got his father's name?
Yes

As for censuses:
Here is Sidney on 1851:
1851 census HO107/2177 f524 p21, 29 Raymond St, Liverpool
Sydna BROWN, head, Mar, 37, Seaman's wife, Carnarvonshire, Pentrevellen
Samuel JONES, son, 10, scholar, Lancs Liverpool
George BROWN, son, 1, Lancs Liverpool
Ann HUGHES, visitor, Mar, 40, Seaman's wife, Carnarvonshire, Poztelle

George Brown was I believe their first son. Samuel was a son of Sidneys from a previous marriage.

By 1861, John has passed away(after 1853 due to birth of Charles):
Sidney Brown, widow, aged 48 is living at 2 Athol Terrace with sons Samuel Jones, 21, and Charles Brown, 7

There is also a daughter Ann christened 29 Sep 1851 at St Martin's church, Liverpool.

So I believe, but am yet to confirm that they had 3 children, George, Ann and Charles(my Gt Gt Grandfather). Not sure why the first 2 are not on 1861 census, could be a number of reasons for that though.

Pete85
14-09-2009, 10:25 PM
just noticed as well. you say that i said he was age 4 when he came over. Not sure where you're getting the age 4 from, I'm not sure when he was born. thanks ever so much for looking in to this though

christanel
14-09-2009, 10:34 PM
By 1861, John has passed away(after 1853 due to birth of Charles):
Sidney Brown, widow, aged 48 is living at 2 Athol Terrace with sons Samuel Jones, 21, and Charles Brown, 7


Do you have John's death certificate? 1861 census there is a John Brown, age 52 leading seaman on board the Magaera, ship of the Royal Navy berthed Cape Finisterre Spain , born Stockholm Sweden. RG9, Piece, 4440 Folio 80, Page 1. Maybe the marraige had faltered and Sidney called herself a widow for the sake of her children.
The age is out by a couple of years which is nothing but if you have the death cert then all the above isn't relevant.
A few thoughts. The notation on the marriage cert is great but it would have been his father who would have changed their name in 1815. Also John would not have had a Swedish accent having lived in England since the age of 4.
No luck with identifying Henry as yet and of course have to keep in mind he may have been made up by John.
Back to it
Christina
ps just noticed your post about John's age. I'll take a look at it again. You're right I made a biiig assumption from the entry of John Brown single in my ref for 1851 census. His marriage cert should show his age hopefully doesn't say ''of full age.

Pete85
14-09-2009, 10:43 PM
Do you have John's death certificate? 1861 census there is a John Brown, age 52 leading seaman on board the Magaera, ship of the Royal Navy berthed Cape Finisterre Spain , born Stockholm Sweden. RG9, Piece, 4440 Folio 80, Page 1. Maybe the marraige had faltered and Sidney called herself a widow for the sake of her children.
The age is out by a couple of years which is nothing but if you have the death cert then all the above isn't relevant.
A few thoughts. The notation on the marriage cert is great but it would have been his father who would have changed their name in 1815. Also John would not have had a Swedish accent having lived in England since the age of 4.
No luck with identifying Henry as yet and of course have to keep in mind he may have been made up by John.
Back to it
Christina
ps just noticed your post about John's age. I'll take a look at it again.

Thanks for this Christina, I'll be heading off to bed shortly, so will have to take a proper look tomorrow. I dont have any certificates yet, I don't even know when John passed away.My assumption was that he died between Charles's birth about 1854 and the census in 1861. Interesting what you found though from the 1961 census, if that is him then there would indeed have to be a reason for Sidney to declare herself a widow

Pete85
14-09-2009, 10:44 PM
ps just noticed your post about John's age. I'll take a look at it again. You're right I made a biiig assumption from the entry of John Brown single in my ref for 1851 census. His marriage cert should show his age hopefully doesn't say ''of full age.

I'm afraid that the person who looked up his certificate for me said it stated "of full age"

Pete85
15-09-2009, 10:15 PM
hmm, been looking more tonight, not found anything to further this research unfortunately. i'll try moving on to another family member and see if i find my way back to John

christanel
15-09-2009, 11:24 PM
I'm afraid that the person who looked up his certificate for me said it stated "of full age"
What a *#*^!

There is a George Brown age 12 at Blue Coat School, School Lane Liverpool in the 1861 census RG9; Piece: 2673; Folio: 135; Page: 8

From Wikipedia - The school was founded in 1708 by Mr Bryan Blundell and Rev.Robert Styth as 'a school for teaching poor children to read, write and cast accounts'. The original Blue Coat School (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charity_school) expanded rapidly and a new building, the present Bluecoat Arts Centre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluecoat_Arts_Centre), opened in 1718.
I wonder if records for this school still exist? I am sure I looked it up once before for someone here on B-G.

I can't find Ann Brown in 1861 and there are too many Ann Brown deaths 1851-1861 to say if she is one of them. Have to finish laptop is out of charge
Christina

Wirral
16-09-2009, 6:56 AM
What a *#*^!

I'm not a *#*^!




There is a George Brown age 12 at Blue Coat School, School Lane Liverpool in the 1861 census RG9; Piece: 2673; Folio: 135; Page: 8

From Wikipedia - The school was founded in 1708 by Mr Bryan Blundell and Rev.Robert Styth as 'a school for teaching poor children to read, write and cast accounts'. The original Blue Coat School (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charity_school) expanded rapidly and a new building, the present Bluecoat Arts Centre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluecoat_Arts_Centre), opened in 1718.
I wonder if records for this school still exist? I am sure I looked it up once before for someone here on B-G.

I can't find Ann Brown in 1861 and there are too many Ann Brown deaths 1851-1861 to say if she is one of them. Have to finish laptop is out of charge
Christina
The records of the Bluecoat are at Liverpool Library. However, Pete is looking for information on John BROWN/HENDERSON who was born before 1815 (when he arrived in England from Sweden), rather than on his family later in the century.

Pete85
16-09-2009, 1:48 PM
Yes, the main subject of my investigating is John BROWN/HENDERSON, but if researching other members may lead me to John, it's worth a try. I know little about John's children so information I can recover about them may narrow down my search for John's details.

Pete85
12-10-2009, 11:40 AM
A little update, though not a positive one. I contacted the Swedish Seaman's Church in Liverpool. Unfortunately, given that they were not established until later in the 19th century, they would not have any records that could help me.
They advised me that Liverpool Library may have something but I wouldn't know where to start so I've hit a brickwall for now.

christanel
12-10-2009, 8:09 PM
Hello Pete
sorry to hear that they couldn't help.
To refresh my memory I went looking again with nothing new coming up except the following which showed up in the England and Wales Criminal Registers 1791-1892.
I include it more as a curiosity but you can file it with the rest of the "what if' bits of paper.
Source citation HO26 piece 7 page 65
When committed 14 July 1801
Magnus Kerner alias John Brown age 60
5/2 (5 foot 2 inches?)
Sallow complexion, grey hair, brown eyes, born Stockholm Sweden
Committed July at New Prison by Mr. Bond
Burglary stealing several silver spoons in the house of Robert Beeby with whom he has lately been servant.
When and where tried - Sept 16 Hotham
Sentenced to death
Pardoned 6 November 1801 - to be transported
Free pardoned 22 November 1802

Christina

Pete85
12-10-2009, 9:18 PM
Hi Christina,

Certainly an interesting find, but given that John married in 1848, this wouldn't be my guy.

Sentenced to death for stealing several silver spoons? Crikey