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View Full Version : france birth look up please or census



cirstybewick
11-06-2009, 5:12 PM
hello

i am looking for a clemence alphonsina victoria elizabeth finch (thats her whole name lol) born abt 1846 in france newington bs.

i think i have found them in the 1851 census living in camberwell surrey


james finch 38
hannah finch 41
james finch 13
amelia finch 10
franagus finch 8
clemence finch 6
william finch 3


clemance and franagus where the only children born in france, if anyone can find a birth for these people or even census in france of this family i would be very thankful

kind regards

cirsty

Peter Goodey
11-06-2009, 6:13 PM
You might like to look out for , 'The British Overseas, A Guide to Records of Their Births, Baptisms, Marriages, Deaths and Burials Available in the United Kingdom', Geoffrey Yeo, London, 2nd edn, 1988.

Kent Library Service should be able to help.

cirstybewick
12-06-2009, 9:09 AM
ok thanks i have a look x

sueannbowen
12-06-2009, 11:22 AM
Hi Cirsty

this page is really helpful:

http://genealogy.about.com/od/france/a/french_ancestry.htm

Sue:)

pottoka
13-06-2009, 2:29 PM
Censuses in France are not at all like they are in England and Wales: for example, in Paris, you can look up the Censuses of 1926, 1931 and 1936, and that is your lot! What is more, to find someone on the said Censuses, you need to know where they were living at the time, i.e. their exact address. It's not a way to track someone down.

I'm afraid that I don't believe that Franagus (is that really his name or is it mistranscribed?) and Clémence were born in Newington in France, either. It's just not a French name. Given the state of the 1851 Census form, where their birth town has been transcribed as Newington, I think you need to find them on another Census to get a "second opinion" as to the name of the town.

Without the name of the town, you won't have the slightest chance of getting a birth document for either of them. Each Town Hall in France recorded the births, deaths and marriages in the town, and you can usually get a copy by writing to the Town Hall. But you have to know exactly which one, unfortunately.

How do you know all of Clémence's names? Did she get married in England?

Peter Goodey
13-06-2009, 2:54 PM
I don't believe Newington because I don't think that's what the census says!

Although Cirsty doesn't mention Amelia, the 1851 census says she was born in Paris (BS).

The dates are consistent with those British families who took advantage of a period of peace to seek fame and fortune in France and then hurried back PDQ in 1848!

I think that if she finds any further documentation about their births, it will be in British sources, hence the book I suggested.

Kerrywood
13-06-2009, 3:09 PM
I don't believe Newington because I don't think that's what the census says!

Looks like Montpelier to me ... ??

Kerrywood

pottoka
13-06-2009, 3:25 PM
I don't believe Newington because I don't think that's what the census says!

Although Cirsty doesn't mention Amelia, the 1851 census says she was born in Paris (BS).

The dates are consistent with those British families who took advantage of a period of peace to seek fame and fortune in France and then hurried back PDQ in 1848!

I think that if she finds any further documentation about their births, it will be in British sources, hence the book I suggested.

I'm sorry if I've upset you by repeating what you had said. I was trying to help in my own clumsy way.

I also read Paris for Amelia and am aware that there is a town called Newington in Surrey.

pottoka
13-06-2009, 3:53 PM
Looks like Montpelier to me ... ??

Kerrywood

You've got good eyes, Kerrywood! I was going to say that Montpellier has two ells in French, but, of course, it would have been spelt by a Briton!

The only thing that has me wondering is why the family would go off to Montpellier; this was a time when the railways were being built, for example between Rouen and Paris, and the father's occupation makes me think that he might have been involved with that.

Or maybe they just wanted a bit of sunshine? http://www.emoticonland.net/smileys/Meteo/met37.gif (http://www.emoticonland.net)

Peter Goodey
13-06-2009, 4:18 PM
I'm sorry if I've upset you

You didn't upset me and I'm sorry if you thought I was having a go at you. I was agreeing with you and also muttering about some points I hadn't noticed before. My clumsiness, if anyone's.

Kerrywood
13-06-2009, 4:24 PM
The only thing that has me wondering is why the family would go off to Montpellier; this was a time when the railways were being built, for example between Rouen and Paris, and the father's occupation makes me think that he might have been involved with that.

Isn't the father a soap-boiler in 1851? Isn't Montpellier a centre for soap manufacturing? Just a thought ;)

Kerrywood

pottoka
13-06-2009, 5:02 PM
I've been tracking Mademoiselle Clémence, Cirsty, although you may well know all that follows. I was hoping to get a Census return with a more clearly written place of birth.

I presume that you have her full name from her marriage certificate. Are there any Finch relatives, married or otherwise, as witnesses at the wedding? Preferably the brother with the odd name because he was born in the same town in France.

In 1871, I can only find a Clemence Greenad, born about 1845 in France (no other details) who is a servant in a household in St Paul Covent Garden, London. She is married, but there is no husband in the household.
Class: RG10; Piece: 362; Folio: 40; Page: 15

In 1881, J.F. Grindrod is living with Eleanor, born about 1845 in France (BS) and five children aged from 13 to 1 in All Saints Poplar, London. It says Eleanor on the Census form as well.
Class: RG11; Piece: 506; Folio: 119; Page: 46

In 1891, C F V E Grindrod and her husband James F. are in Poplar, London with six children. She was born in France in about 1846.
Class: RG12; Piece: 331; Folio 10; Page 13

In 1901, Clemence is a widow, born in about 1846 in France and living in Bromley. Four of her children are still living with her, plus one more who is married, so there is the son-in-law and a grandchild.
Class: RG13; Piece: 349; Folio: 7; Page: 5

So, on each subsequent Census, she has only said that she was born in France, without a town, which doesn't get us anywhere. Merci beaucoup, Clemence!

pottoka
13-06-2009, 5:35 PM
Isn't the father a soap-boiler in 1851? Isn't Montpellier a centre for soap manufacturing? Just a thought ;)

Kerrywood

I definitely need glasses! Now that you've said soap, I can't even remember what I thought it said, but I was definitely thinking about boilers, boilermakers, heavy industry and trains!

One of my brats spent two years doing a diploma course in Montpellier, but I never had the chance to go and visit him there and I know very little about the place (apart from that it has the oldest medical faculty in Europe). There doesn't seem to be anything about soap on its website. Could you be thinking about savon de marseille?

Kerrywood
13-06-2009, 5:49 PM
I was under the impression that much of that part of France was once famous for soap and perfumery -- perhaps no longer now, but in the 1800s? But I'm happy to stand corrected ... :)

(I can't recommend my glasses, by the way - I need new ones :()

Kerrywood

sueannbowen
13-06-2009, 6:16 PM
I definitely need glasses! Now that you've said soap, I can't even remember what I thought it said, but I was definitely thinking about boilers, boilermakers, heavy industry and trains!

One of my brats spent two years doing a diploma course in Montpellier, but I never had the chance to go and visit him there and I know very little about the place (apart from that it has the oldest medical faculty in Europe). There doesn't seem to be anything about soap on its website. Could you be thinking about savon de marseille?

Fabulous soap from there! :D

pottoka
13-06-2009, 8:31 PM
I was under the impression that much of that part of France was once famous for soap and perfumery -- perhaps no longer now, but in the 1800s? But I'm happy to stand corrected ... :)

(I can't recommend my glasses, by the way - I need new ones :()

Kerrywood

Please don't think that I'm correcting you: I don't know enough about the region to pontificate. I only know that "savon de Marseille" is a kind of soap which is very common in France; it used to be used for clothes washing, for example, and you could buy it in big blocks that you chopped into smaller pieces. Washing flakes of "savon de Marseille" are an alternative to washing detergent, considered harsher to the skin. It has been modernised now with all sorts of different perfumes to be a soap for every kind of use, and also exists in liquid form.

The perfumery industry was centred around Grasse where they used to grow the flowers for the perfumes, and still do for the rare perfumes which are made from real flowers, not synthetic aromas.

cirstybewick
13-06-2009, 9:57 PM
thankyou all for your help firstly i didn't know that amelia was born in france i must of not noticed that, also that clemance dosn't have any of her relations on the marriage cert its only her husbands relations.

mmmmm which way do i go now lol x

Kerrywood
13-06-2009, 10:04 PM
Please don't think that I'm correcting you: I don't know enough about the region to pontificate.

Neither do I :)


I only know that "savon de Marseille" is a kind of soap which is very common in France; it used to be used for clothes washing, for example, and you could buy it in big blocks that you chopped into smaller pieces. Washing flakes of "savon de Marseille" are an alternative to washing detergent, considered harsher to the skin. It has been modernised now with all sorts of different perfumes to be a soap for every kind of use, and also exists in liquid form.

That's really interesting - we live and learn. :)


The perfumery industry was centred around Grasse where they used to grow the flowers for the perfumes, and still do for the rare perfumes which are made from real flowers, not synthetic aromas.

Ah, thanks for that. Seems I got my soaps and perfumes confused :D

So the question remains, what was a soap boiler doing in Montpellier, if indeed the 1851 census does read Montpellier, and if he was in a related occupation while he was there?

I did find a reference on this Montpellier site (http://www.montpellier.worldweb.com/Montpellier/SightsAttractions/ParksGardens/), which might possibly relate to the 1840s, though the precise time-frame isn't clear:

"Château de la Mosson was constructed during the 18th century by Joseph Bonnier, treasurer of the states of Languedoc. After the family became bankrupt at the end of the 18th century, the building became a silk factory, a dye factory, and a soap factory, before finally being aquired by the town of Montpellier in 1982."

Perhaps the original enquirer will have a view in due course ;)

Kerrywood

pottoka
14-06-2009, 1:00 AM
Well done, Kerrywood!
After searching through a number of sites in Montpellier - what to do, where to go - which mentioned the Château de la Mosson and claimed to tell its story, but skipped a couple of hundred years each time, I finally found this:
"But it was only on 20th April 1786 that le Baron de Batz, born of the second marriage of the widow de Bonnier (the chap who built the Château) sold to François Oeuf the mas of La Paillade, Fontcaude and Juvignac (land annexes of the actual Château) for 99,000 livres.
François Oeuf was a rich industrialist who lived on the property during the Revolution. There he established a soap factory and a dye factory. He died on 10th December 1802 leaving two heiresses of which the youngest died".
There is thereafter a total mess with wills and underage heirs which presumably puts paid to the factories. In the end, the place is sold in court in 1875 to a Monsieur Antoine Baudoin whose daughter later inherits it and is the owner until 1931 (debatable) when it is turned to farming and planted with vines.

pottoka
14-06-2009, 1:08 AM
thankyou all for your help firstly i didn't know that amelia was born in france i must of not noticed that, also that clemance dosn't have any of her relations on the marriage cert its only her husbands relations.

mmmmm which way do i go now lol x

Presumably it is Clemence who is your ancestor and whose birth certificate you are interested in?

You could see if she puts anything more than France as her birth place on the 1911 Census. It's a long shot, seeing as she hasn't up until then, but one never knows. She is on the Census, supposedly born in 1844, and living in Poplar, London.

Or you could try to track down her brother who was born in the same place as her and see if he gives his place of birth again.

cirstybewick
14-06-2009, 11:38 AM
thankyou very much i will have to find her brother as i do not have ascess to 1911 census.

i will keep you all informed as to where i go with all this.


thankyou everyone xxxxxxxx

pottoka
14-06-2009, 12:17 PM
You can buy credits for the 1911 Census rather than taking out a subscription. The lowest price is 60 credits for £6.95 which would allow you to view two original images of a household or six transcripts of the people living in a household. Next is £24.95 for 280 credits which works out cheaper in the long run.

This is for information only; I don't have shares and I don't know for sure that it's the route to take. But I'm sure you would find it interesting to have the Census return.

pottoka
15-06-2009, 12:34 PM
On the off-chance that Clémence was born in Montpellier, I looked through the ten-year tables of births there as they are on-line. I'm sorry to have to say that I couldn't find her.