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Nigellord
19-02-2009, 5:28 PM
I am trying to track down John Careless who married Mary Ann Worthington on 8th Feb 1857 in Wallsall Wood Staffs. There is one in the 1881 census who might fit the bill but his birthplace is given as Southampton, so I am not completely convinced. Any help would be very much appreciated.

busyglen
19-02-2009, 6:35 PM
I wonder if it is possible that they died? I came across a John Richard Careless, stepson aged 13 and an Ellen Careless stepdaughter 15 living with a Joseph and Sarah Coe, in Stoke on Trent, Staffs on the 1871 Census. Obviously Sarah isn't Mary Ann, and I can't quite see the connection, but Ellen would be about the right age if John & Mary married in 1857.

There aren't too many Careless families around, especially in Staffs.

Just a thought....and I'm probably wrong, but worth a mention.

Glenys

Nigellord
20-02-2009, 12:14 AM
I am particularly interested in finding out who his parents might be.

jeeb
20-02-2009, 1:32 AM
Hi Nigel,

1861 census
RG9/2018 Folio 174 Page 21
105 Walsall Wood St, Walsall
John Carless 26 Baker & Toyshop Keeper born Sutton Warks
Mary Ann wife 28 born Kidderminster Worcs
Roseanna dau 3 born Walsall Wood Staffs
James son1 born Walsall Wood
Jane dau 1 born Walsall Wood
Caroline sister 20 House Svt born Great Barr Warks


The 1851 shows John & Caroline as step children and their mother is now named Sarah Preece

Jeremy

Nicolina
20-02-2009, 4:06 AM
there are three on the 1841 Census who were born in Warwickshire around that time.
HO107/1128/6/9 Page 10
Little Sutton, Sutton Coldfield
Joseph b. abt. 1806
Mary b. abt. 1811
Charles b. abt. 1831 in Warwickshire
John b. abt. 1836 in Warwickshire
------------------
HO107/1141/7/17 Page 26
Tower Street, Upper, St George, Birmingham
Ezekiel b. abt. 1801 in Warwickshire
Eliza b. abt. 1811 in Warwickshire
Harriot b. abt. 1826 in Warwickshire
Caroline b. abt. 1831 in Warwickshire
William b. abt. 1832 in Warwickshire
John b. abt. 1834 in Warwickshire
Ezekiel b. abt. 1836 in Warwickshire
Frederick b. abt. 1839 in Warwickshire
-----------------
HO107/1150/5/28 Page 5
Erdington Workhouse, Aston
John b. abt. 1833 in Warwickshire
------------

jeeb
20-02-2009, 9:43 AM
Hi Nigel,

The 1851 census gives a little insight into this family:-

HO107/2023 Folio 822 Page 18
Great Barr, Staffs
John Preece 45 Ag Lab born Essex Bilericay
Sarah Preece wife 46 Born Warks Sutton Coldfield
Eliza Preece dau 8 born Great Barr
Caroline Carless step dau 10 born Great Barr
John step son 17 Ag Lab born Warks Erdington
Elizabeth Parsonage nursechild 1 born Walsall
Phoebe Pullin Visitor 50 Dress Maker born Herefs Bardistree
Leorata Morse visitor 9 born St Owen

These are my opinions:-
1) John Carless was in the workhouse in 1841
2) Sarah Carless was probably a single woman when John & Caroline were born, this likely registration for Caroline's birth would prove it either way - Caroline Careless Oct/Dec 1840 Walsall vol 17 page 219
3) This marriage registration for Sarah Careless & John Preece would name her father - Jul/Sept 1841 West Bromwich vol 18 page 555
4) Phoebe Pullin is listed as a Dress Maker which she may well have been but this term was also used to describe 'prostitutes' on 1851 censuses.

Jeremy

Nigellord
21-02-2009, 9:27 PM
Hi Jeremy
Many thanks for the information, you have given me a bit to think about there. I shall certainly get hold of the marriage certificate of Sarah Careless and John Preece. This actually supports some other information I had. I will also look into Carolines birth and see what light that throws on the situation. Do you think there is a possibility that Sarah was married before to an unknown Careless? I was also wondering if you thought there were any links with this branch of careless to the William Carless VC who has a stautue outside Walsall library?

Nigel

jeeb
23-02-2009, 1:24 PM
Hi Nigel,
Of course it is possible that Sarah Careless was married pre her marriage to John Preece but there is no real suitable death entries for a possible husband, the closest being Joseph Carless registered dead in Walsall Jul/Sept 1839 (reg district for Great Barr) but Caroline's birth is not registered until over a year later so he can't be her father. I would be interested to know what it says on the marriage certificate of John Preece & Sarah Careless.

John Preece is stated as born Bilericay, Essex but Preece is an extremely localised name appearing rarely outside Herefordshire & Shropshire in England. There is a baptism recorded in Bilericay in 1806 for John Press which I think is likely to be him.

With regards to the monument outside Walsall library - I am unaware of it so can't give you any information as to who this might be or any connection to Sarah Carless.

I researched a Careless family fairly extensively quite recently for someone. This was a Warwickshire/Worcestershire based Careless family though and didn't really move into Birmingham area any closer than Redditch.

Jeremy

Nigellord
27-02-2009, 4:43 PM
Hi Jeremy
Have received the birth certificate for Caroline CARELESS, and guess what, no father given. Birth was registered as 17th September 1840 in the town ship of Great Barr, which I note is sort of midway between Walsall, Handsworth and Burntwood. So it smack in the middle of where all the family come from. Birth was registered in the sub district of Aldridge in the Walsall Union. I have not come across the Walsall Union before, is it just a local name or does it have any other significance?

However, I also received the marriage certificate of Sarah CARLESS to John PREECE, which proves a bit more interesting. Married 26th September 1841 in the parish church at Handsworth. Groom - John PREECE of full age, bachelor, occupation Excavator, residence Handsworth, father John PREECE carpenter.
Bride - Sarah CARLESS of full age, widow, residence Handsworth, father Joseph Witacker, labourer.

Could this suggests that perhaps she was married before and that her husband had died? I wonder if Caroline CARELESS was the result of a liaison between Sarah and John before they were married after her previous husband died?

I have had a quick look on the IGI, which I know is not the most reliable resource, and Whitacker and its many derivatives appears most commonly in Lancashire and Yorkshire. I can find no record of a marriage of Sarah Whitacker to a Carless, but several possible births in 1811, 1814, 1817 and 1815 in the approximate area.

Any ideas of a way forward from here? I suppose I need to try and find evidence of a possible marriage to a CARLESS or to find the birth of John, to see if that indicates who his father might have been. If as you say he was in the workhouse in 1841 perhaps his father had died by then and his mother was unable to support him. Where was she in the 1841 census?

Any suggestions you can offer as to a way forward would be very gratefully received.

Nigel|banghead|

jeeb
28-02-2009, 9:05 AM
Hi Nigel,

I expected that you would discover Caroline Careless didn't have a father mentioned on the birth certificate. It is almost impossible to prove whether John Preece was her father or not but I suspect not as she is listed as his daughter in law (step daughter) in 1851.

It would seem likely Sarah Whitaker had married a Careless pre the marriage to John Preece and that John Careless was a child of that union. I have not found this marriage though but the Joseph Careless registered dead in Walsall in 1839 is a good possibility as the first husband. Both Warwickshire & Staffordshire have good Marriage Indexes which are held by BMSGH (Birmingham & Midland Society of Genealogy & Heraldry) It is also worth considering that Sarah Whitaker was born 1803 so she may have already married before she married Mr. Careless in which case you will not find a Whitaker/Careless marriage.
John Careless is stated as born Erdington 1833 so it may be worth checking there for a baptism and even a possible marriage for the parents.
It is annoying that Sarah & Caroline Careless do not appear to be on 1841 census. I have found a possiblity for John Preece but he is living alone. (1841 was taken just before the marriage)

Here is Sarah Whitaker's birth and baptism:- born 17 June 1803 baptised 31 July 1803 Sutton Coldfield parents Joseph & Sarah.

This is probably John Preece:- John Press born 2 May 1806 baptised 18 May 1806 Billericay, Essex parents John & Ann

Jeremy

samgibbons56
28-02-2009, 12:14 PM
Hello,
Just a thought, could Sarah also have been illegitimate but knew her fathers' name of Whitaker?
Sam

jeeb
28-02-2009, 2:37 PM
Hello,
Just a thought, could Sarah also have been illegitimate but knew her fathers' name of Whitaker?
Sam

Hi Sam,
Not really because her baptism is in Sutton Coldfield and both parents are named as Joseph & Sarah Whitaker. Sarah gives her birth place as Sutton Coldfield on censuses and on her second marriage when she is a widow named Careless her father is named as Joseph Whitaker.

Jeremy

Nigellord
28-02-2009, 7:46 PM
Hi Jeremy

Many thanks for that information. Here are a few more thoughts. I have found a christening for Caroline CARLESSon 22nd Aug 1841 in Great Barr, where she was born, with just a mother, Sarah CARLESS mentioned and no father. I think this probably the correct one. Perhaps they were tidying up things before Sarah married John?

I have also found a John CARLESS christened 26th Oct 1834 in Sutton Coalfield, with parents given as William CARLESS and Sarah, but I do not know if this is close enough to Erdington to possibly be one and the same. It would however, fit in with Sarah WHITAKER born 1803 in Sutton Coalfield, or am I just grasping at straws?

Bearing in mind that the 1851 census gives Sarah' age as 46 ( and I know these ages have to be taken with a pinch of salt) could she be born 1806. I have found a Sarah Whitaker born/christened 19th May 1806 in Lane End, Stafford, which I think is near Newcastle under Lyme, probably too far away?

But I shall and follow up on your suggestions for Sarah and John. It would be interesting to find her marriage to CARLESS as this may tell us if she was widow and had been previously married as you suggest. I am a member of the BMSGH so will try and get on the case.

Thanks for all your help and suggestions, they are really great. I am also awaiting a possible marriage certificate for John and Mary Ann, so will keep you posted on that, and if you have any further ideas i would be grateful to receive them.

Best wishes

Nigel

jeeb
01-03-2009, 1:08 PM
Hi Nigel,
The baptism of John Careless in 1834 looks very hopeful as Erdington is very close to Sutton Coldfield. You need a marriage for William Careless to Sarah. A burial for William Careless would be very helpful, probably pre 1837 but BMSGH have burial indexes for Warks & Staffs and his age would be given on that.
The baptism of Caroline in Great Barr is also interesting as it is just before Sarah's marriage to John Preece. The census for 1841 was taken in June so Sarah could have still been in Great Barr, but I cannot find her. I do not think John Preece will be the father of Caroline.

My feeling is that the baptism of Sarah Whitaker in Sutton Coldfield 1803 is still far more likely to be your Sarah Careless than one in Stafford but nothing must be overlooked. Ages on censuses are often inaccurate sometimes as much as 10 years out.

Jeremy

jeeb
02-03-2009, 10:59 AM
Hi Nigel,
Further to my previous reply, I have found Mary Anne Carless baptised 2 May 1831 at Sutton Coldfield, she is a daughter of William & Sarah so this helps to pinpoint a more accurate marriage date. I don't know what happened to Mary Anne but she probably died in infancy, 1832 of course was the great Cholera outbreak.

There are two possible death registrations for William Careless at Aston (Registration district for Sutton Coldfield)

William Careless Oct/Dec 1837 vol 16 page 143
William Careless Jul/ Sept 1838 vol 16 page 128

The problem here is that we do not know when William died and is likely to be pre July 1837 in which case he would not be on civil registration. If I was you I would consult the Warwickshire Burial Index first before you start 'buying too many death certs'

Jeremy

Nigellord
04-03-2009, 10:31 AM
Hi Jeremy

Thanks for that extra information, haven't had a chance to follow it up yet, hoever, I have come across a birth and death for a William Carless, Christened 2 Sep Smethwick, Stafford and died 12 Nov 1839. Parents are given as William Carless and Sarah. Sounds like it might be the same William and Sarah for the Mary Anne you found. That was also interesting, as one of my great aunts, now sadly deceased was called Mary Ann.

Nigel

jeeb
04-03-2009, 7:30 PM
Hi Jeremy

Thanks for that extra information, haven't had a chance to follow it up yet, hoever, I have come across a birth and death for a William Carless, Christened 2 Sep Smethwick, Stafford and died 12 Nov 1839. Parents are given as William Carless and Sarah. Sounds like it might be the same William and Sarah for the Mary Anne you found. That was also interesting, as one of my great aunts, now sadly deceased was called Mary Ann.

Nigel

Hi Nigel,
The William christened/died 1839 is very unlikely to be the son of your Sarah Carless. The reason being, there is a couple named William & Sarah Carless on 1841 census with a 5 year old Joseph and 5 month old Thomas. This is likely to be the parents of William in 1839 but can't be your William & Sarah because we know Sarah has Caroline in 1840 with no father mentioned.

The Mary Ann I found baptised to a William & Sarah Careless 1831 in Sutton Coldfield is highly likely to be a sister to John baptised to a William & Sarah Carless in 1834 at Sutton Coldfield. (This is NOT the same William & Sarah mentioned above)This John 1834 probably being the child in the workhouse at Erdington in 1841. It then follows the mother Sarah is going be the mother of Caroline born at Great Barr in 1840 because the 1851 census lists John Carless 17 born Erdington & Caroline Carless 10 born Great Barr as brother & sister. It also states they are children of Sarah Preece. The marriage certificate to John Preece tells us Sarah was a widow named Carless formerly Whitaker.
To get this family back any further you are going to have to locate the marriage of Sarah Whitaker to a William (most likely) Careless and then find a death for William Careless which will give his age. The most likely place for a marriage is Sutton Coldfield and the death is most likely to be there too or at Erdington.
Hope you have been able to follow all this!

Jeremy

Nigellord
09-03-2009, 5:53 PM
Hi Jeremy

I have made an enquiry at BMSGH Warwickshire marriage records and they have not turned up anything on this one, suggesting she might have got married just after 1937 or in the Greater Birmingham area, which will be my next stop. Will keep you posted of progress, if any.

Nigellord
11-03-2009, 12:43 PM
Hi Jeremy

My great grandmother on my maternal fathers side was Sarah Jane BIRD who was married ot George CARLESS son of the John CARELESS we are trying to find out about. Her father was Emanuel BIRD who was married to an Emma CARLESS (CARLESS) July 4th 1859. I wondered if there were any connections so ordered the marriage certificate. They were married in Shenstone and her father was given as a William CARLESS a farm labourer. Her age was given as 19 years, this would put her birth at about 1840. Her full name at time of marriage was Emma Emily Witacker CARLESS. This would suggest that she is the daughter of William and Sarah Whitacker, would you not agree? i have looked on FreeBMD but cannot find her birth. Shenstone I believe is in Staffs, is that correct? I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this matter.
Nigel

jeeb
11-03-2009, 3:55 PM
Hi Nigel,

How did you find the marriage of John Careless and Mary Ann Worthington in 1857. It is not registered?

Jeremy

Nigellord
12-03-2009, 11:59 AM
Hi Jeremy

In answer to your question, one is word of mouth, passed on down the family, then I found a John Careless married to Mary Ann Worthington on 08/02/1857 at Walsall Wood on the IGI. I know that is not the most reliable of sources, but his father is given as John Preece. Additionally the 1961 census has John Carless living with his wife Mary Ann and three children and sister Caroline. I am hoping that the GRO can come up with a certificate? What did you think about the marriage of Emmanuel Bird and Emma Emily Witicker Carless.

All the best

Nigel

jeeb
12-03-2009, 12:45 PM
Hi Jeremy

My great grandmother on my maternal fathers side was Sarah Jane BIRD who was married ot George CARLESS son of the John CARELESS we are trying to find out about. Her father was Emanuel BIRD who was married to an Emma CARLESS (CARLESS) July 4th 1859. I wondered if there were any connections so ordered the marriage certificate. They were married in Shenstone and her father was given as a William CARLESS a farm labourer. Her age was given as 19 years, this would put her birth at about 1840. Her full name at time of marriage was Emma Emily Witacker CARLESS. This would suggest that she is the daughter of William and Sarah Whitacker, would you not agree? i have looked on FreeBMD but cannot find her birth. Shenstone I believe is in Staffs, is that correct? I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this matter.
Nigel

Hi Nigel,
The plot thickens!
I have found this Emma Carless in 1851 and her parents are William and Sarah Careless. They are living in Shenstone, Staffs. However it states that Emma 1841 and her sister Mary Anne 1840 were born Heddingley, Worcestershire. I don't know of such a place and cannot find them in 1841 nor a birth registration under either Careless/Whitaker variations for either child.
Nigel, you have to get it out of your head that William & Sarah Careless are the same couple every time they are mentioned because they aren't, there is more than one couple named William & Sarah Carless, in fact there seems to be three William & Sarah Careless couples. It looks like there is a case of 'cousins' marrying 'cousins' going on here between Careless & Whitaker family. Intermarrying families was a common occurance.

The 1881 census stating John Careless born Southampton IS your family, the birthplaces of John & Mary are interchanged (this is written wrongly on the original census) and it should read Mary born Southampton and John born Erdington. That and the fact he names a child Caroline is as good as proof you will get that we have the right man.

If you are still confused about the above don't be afraid to ask.

Jeremy

jeeb
12-03-2009, 12:57 PM
Hi Jeremy

In answer to your question, one is word of mouth, passed on down the family, then I found a John Careless married to Mary Ann Worthington on 08/02/1857 at Walsall Wood on the IGI. I know that is not the most reliable of sources, but his father is given as John Preece. Additionally the 1961 census has John Carless living with his wife Mary Ann and three children and sister Caroline. I am hoping that the GRO can come up with a certificate? What did you think about the marriage of Emmanuel Bird and Emma Emily Witicker Carless.

All the best

Nigel

Hi Nigel,
If this is correct then we need to look at it from a different aspect because if his father was John then he is not the son of William & Sarah Careless born 1834 at Sutton.

The Sarah nee Whitaker is all correct as his mother, of that I am as good as certain but now you need to see a copy of that marriage in Walsall Wood and see if his father really was John. Then we need to find a marriage between a John Careless & Sarah Whitaker and death of a John Careless about 1834, for that try Warwickshire burial index.

Jeremy

jeeb
12-03-2009, 2:07 PM
Hi Nigel,
If this is correct then we need to look at it from a different aspect because if his father was John then he is not the son of William & Sarah Careless born 1834 at Sutton.

The Sarah nee Whitaker is all correct as his mother, of that I am as good as certain but now you need to see a copy of that marriage in Walsall Wood and see if his father really was John. Then we need to find a marriage between a John Careless & Sarah Whitaker and death of a John Careless about 1834, for that try Warwickshire burial index.

Jeremy

Hi Nigel,
Actually this will be him and please ignore my above answer because John Preece was not his real father so we are back to him being the likely child of William & Sarah Careless baptised in 1834 at Sutton.

I found found out something much more concrete and I don't think you could know this as you have not mentioned it.

I was puzzled why in 1861 Mary Ann gave her birth place as Kidderminster and then on subsequent censuses as Southampton. The reason is that she died and John remarried.

Death Mary Ann Carless age 33 Oct/Dec 1866 Walsall vol 6b page 394

John remarried in 1867 and this will be your true direct line and whats more you can now find his father's name for certain:-

Marriage John Careless & Mary Eliza Callaway Apr/June 1867 Walsall vol 6b page 765

John died in 1885 age 52

Death John Careless Oct/Dec 1885 Cannock vol 6b page 322

Mary eliza remarried and can be found in 1891 with Carless children as step children

Marriage James Hayward & Mary Eliza Careless Jan/Mar 1889 Cannock vol 6b page 514

Jeremy

Nigellord
15-03-2009, 10:07 AM
Hi Jeremy
I think I have got my head round all that. I know I had seen Mary Ann Worthington somewhere else, had a look through some papers and came across the birth certificate of George Careless, my great Grandfather born 22 May 1862, Walsall, Aldridge District, father John Careless - baker and mother Mary Ann Careless, formerly Worthington. Do you think this could be the Mary Ann that John was married to who died in 1866?

On George's marriage certificate to Sarah Jane Bird, 27 December 1885 st Giles Church, Chasetown, his father's profession is given as confectioner.

I did know about John Careless in the 1981 census with the birthplace of Southampton, but was not sure if it was the correct one because of his given birthplace and because his occupation was given as miner. i have been unable to find a John Careless born in Southampton. Perhaps though in 1881 he was earning a better income as a miner or his circumstances has changed?

I suppose the way forward from here is to obtain either one or both of John Careless's death and marriage certificate. Additionally perhaps I should look at the BMSGH records to see if I can find his birth. Is Sutton, Sutton Coalfield, and is that near Erdington?

Does this seem a sensible way forward?

I also have a question about the census, do you have access to them online, and if so where?

All the best

Nigel

jeeb
15-03-2009, 3:03 PM
Hi Jeremy
I think I have got my head round all that. I know I had seen Mary Ann Worthington somewhere else, had a look through some papers and came across the birth certificate of George Careless, my great Grandfather born 22 May 1862, Walsall, Aldridge District, father John Careless - baker and mother Mary Ann Careless, formerly Worthington. Do you think this could be the Mary Ann that John was married to who died in 1866?

On George's marriage certificate to Sarah Jane Bird, 27 December 1885 st Giles Church, Chasetown, his father's profession is given as confectioner.

I did know about John Careless in the 1981 census with the birthplace of Southampton, but was not sure if it was the correct one because of his given birthplace and because his occupation was given as miner. i have been unable to find a John Careless born in Southampton. Perhaps though in 1881 he was earning a better income as a miner or his circumstances has changed?

I suppose the way forward from here is to obtain either one or both of John Careless's death and marriage certificate. Additionally perhaps I should look at the BMSGH records to see if I can find his birth. Is Sutton, Sutton Coalfield, and is that near Erdington?

Does this seem a sensible way forward?

I also have a question about the census, do you have access to them online, and if so where?

All the best

Nigel

Hi Nigel,
I will state the basic facts that I feel certain about so it is easier to follow:-

1) John Carless was the son of Sarah Careless nee Whitaker. He was born c1834 in Erdington/Sutton Coalfield area.
2) He married Mary Anne Worthington in 1857. (not registered)
3) George, your Gt Grandfather was their son born 1862.
4) Mary Anne 'Worthington' Careless dies in 1866
5)John remarries Mary Eliza Callaway in 1867, she was born in Southampton. This marriage is registered and I have given details on previous reply. You need to get this certificate to find John's father.
6) John appears on 1881 census wrongly given as born Southampton. It was his wife who was born in Southampton, John was born Erdington.
7) John Careless dies in 1885.
8) His widow Mary Eliza remarries to James Hayward in 1889.

With regards to your other questions:-
1) Sutton Coalfield and Erdington are very close.
2) I have access to all census returns.

Jeremy

Nigellord
16-03-2009, 10:36 AM
Hi Jeremy

Thanks very much for all your help, you have been an absolute star! What you have summarised is what I eventually thought was the case, after your careful and patient direction. Work pressures will probably prohibit me from doing much for a little while, but I will keep you posted if I make any progress on John and his parents. Once again thanks for your brilliant support.

Nigel

Nigellord
12-04-2009, 6:34 PM
Hi Jeremy
Having received death and marriage certificates for John I confirm that his father was given as given as William Careless, labourer. When married he was living at Walsall Wood and his trade was baker. His wife was Mary Eliza Callaway and he was a widower. At his death he was colliery bankman and was living at Norton, Brownhills.
I suppose the next step is to try and find his birth in Erdington as that should tell us his mother's name from which it should be possible to find his parent's marriage? Unless you have any other ideas?
Nigel:)

Nigellord
12-04-2009, 6:36 PM
Hi Jeremy
Silly me, we already know his mother's name, Whitacker!
Nigel

jeeb
13-04-2009, 9:12 AM
Hi Nigel,
It was good to have my prognosis that John was the son of William Careless proved correct.
It is a pity BMSGH Warwickshire Marriage Index did not turn up a marriage for William Careless & Sarah Whitaker. There are a few reasons this may be:-
1) They never actually married or it wasn't recorded.
2) If they didn't marry in Warks. (Sarah was born in Sutton Coldfield and baptised her two children by William Careless there which suggests she stayed locally until she moved to Walsall c1840.
3) Sarah had possibly been married before so she wouldn't be Whitaker at her marriage to William Careless.
4) Their names are so 'distorted' that they do not show up on the index.

To iterate the facts and what you need to do next.

William & Sarah Careless appear to have had a Mary Ann baptised in Sutton Coldfield in 1831 so their marriage ideally should be pre 1831.
William Careless dies pre 1840 (probably around 1834) and most likely in Erdington or Sutton Coldfield. You need this death to find his age.
The child Mary Ann does not appear after her baptism in 1831. Try to find her death, again in Erdington or Sutton Coldfield. Warks burial index should turn something up here. Her baptism is at Sutton Coldfield in 1831, this would be worth looking at to see abode of parents, and similarly that of John in 1834.
Unfortunately until we know the birth year of your William Careless we cannot move back because there are other William Careless in the same area and we have no way of knowing which William's birth we are looking at without a birth year guide and we don't know where your William was born either.

Jeremy

RobWootton
02-07-2009, 9:49 AM
Hi Jeremy
Many thanks for the information, you have given me a bit to think about there. I shall certainly get hold of the marriage certificate of Sarah Careless and John Preece. This actually supports some other information I had. I will also look into Carolines birth and see what light that throws on the situation. Do you think there is a possibility that Sarah was married before to an unknown Careless? I was also wondering if you thought there were any links with this branch of careless to the William Carless VC who has a stautue outside Walsall library?

Nigel

Hi Nigel,

I was looking at your post regarding the Carless family.

Off the top of my head:

John Carless VC (walsall) was my Grandmothers Uncle.
I have been told by my Grandmother that this side of the family is descended from Sicily and they had emigrated to the Walsall area.

I do not know if there is any link between histories but the name "Bird" definitely rings a bell. I will take a look at the notes I have from my Grandmother and get back to you.

I haven't as yet really looked into family history but would be very interested in learning more about this.

Best regards,
Rob

Nigellord
03-07-2009, 8:08 AM
Hi Rob
Good to hear from you. I would be grateful for any information you could give me re John Carless VC (Walsall), your grandmother's name and the name of her uncle would be a good start. As to Bird, my great grandfather was married to a Sarah Jane Bird, and I suspect there were other Birds in the family, but have not as yet had time to follow that one up. Any information you can supply would be very helpful. Look forward to hearing from you.
Nigel

jeeb
11-07-2009, 3:28 PM
Hi Nigel,
I looked into a connection between your family and the John Carless who has a statue outside Walsall library when you first mentioned it, I could not find a close connection with your family or indeed a connection at all.

The statue is to John Henry Carless who was awarded the VC in WW1 for bravery. Though seriously wounded he held off enemy with a handgun until he collapsed and died. John Henry Carless was born in November 1896 in Walsall, he was the son of John Thomas Carless and his wife Elizabeth nee Smith.
John Thomas Carless was the son of *William & Sarah Carless, he was born 1860 in Walsall and the father William was born 1835 in Walsall. This family invariably spell their name CARLESS.

*This is one of the other William & Sarah Careless/Carless couples I mentioned earlier, you may recall I said beware of confusing them with your William & Sarah Careless.

Regards
Jeremy