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sascha
29-12-2004, 5:50 PM
This really is a long shot so here goes:

My grandmother is called Janet Jacobs born 1917

Her mother was called Sarah Jacobs, would have died around 1962 - 1966 in Sellyoak Birmingham.

Now Sarah Jacobs was one of maybe 13 children, I am unsure of most of them but here is who I know about so far, Sarah had a sister called Bessie (Betsy) Jacobs and she married a Alfred Gribbler and they had 3 sons, called Ian, Jermey and David. David married and moved abroad and had a son of his own called Mark.

Sarah also had a brother called Manny Jacobs (could be Emanuel or Manfred), I also think she had a brother called Horris Jacobs but not 100% sure at the moment.

Without any dates I am finding this extremely difficult. As far as I am aware Sarah Jacobs never married just like my grandmother never married.

Once Sarah had given birth to my grandmother she was put into a home in Stamford Hill, Stoke Newington, i am guessing that maybe its because she gave birth without being married.

I would be grateful if anyone could help me in some way or maybe have these people on their family tree.

Many thanx

Rossbret
04-01-2005, 5:58 PM
This really is a long shot so here goes:

My grandmother is called Janet Jacobs born 1917

Her mother was called Sarah Jacobs, would have died around 1962 - 1966 in Sellyoak Birmingham.

Now Sarah Jacobs was one of maybe 13 children, I am unsure of most of them but here is who I know about so far, Sarah had a sister called Bessie (Betsy) Jacobs and she married a Alfred Gribbler and they had 3 sons, called Ian, Jermey and David. David married and moved abroad and had a son of his own called Mark.

Sarah also had a brother called Manny Jacobs (could be Emanuel or Manfred), I also think she had a brother called Horris Jacobs but not 100% sure at the moment.

Without any dates I am finding this extremely difficult. As far as I am aware Sarah Jacobs never married just like my grandmother never married.

Once Sarah had given birth to my grandmother she was put into a home in Stamford Hill, Stoke Newington, i am guessing that maybe its because she gave birth without being married.

I would be grateful if anyone could help me in some way

Many thanx
Quite a complex problem.

I do feel that Sarah could have been institutionalised under the mental health act for having a Baby "out of wedlock" which was considered Morally wrong. Do you have any ideas of the type of place it was or for how long she was there?

Do you also have a birth certificate for Janet Jacobs born in 1917 - was this in Birmingham, and where?

There's quite a distance between Birmingham and Stoke Newington ..... there must be some reason for that.

I do have a Bessie Jacobs myself - not related to yours unfortunately but provided me with a number of difficulties.

All the best, Jan

Peter Goodey
04-01-2005, 6:36 PM
Was the Stamford Hill place an exclusively Jewish institution? It might have been just community pressure sent her there - also an element of exile in it being so far from home.

sascha
04-01-2005, 11:02 PM
Hi Jan

I have just received my grandmothers birth certificate and on it she was born in Raddle Barn Road, Selly Oak, it then goes on to say Sarah Jacobs was a munition worker at 12 Summer Lane, Birmingham.

I guessed my grandmother was born in Birmingham but not sure why she was taken to Stoke Newington and brought up there.

Not sure if i was clear in my first email. From what i can gather is Janet Jacobs (my grandmother) was taken to Stoke Newington but i doubt if Sarah Jacobs went with her. Funny you should say about being under the mental health act as my grandmother (Janet Jacobs) was under the mental health act, but from what age i do not know i am thinking from around 1955 as a friend of my grandmother told my mother that she started behaving weird about 6mths after giving birth to my mother which is why my mother was also brought up in a home.

Peter

I am unsure if Stamford Hill place an exclusively Jewish institution, whenever i do a google search i find out it is a school but no mention of it being a home for jewish children.

This is a difficult task i appreciate that, but if i could find someone that is related as Sarah Jacobs had at least another 10 brothers and sisters, surely they must of had children and so on.

Thanks for your help so far,

Sarah

Dolly
04-01-2005, 11:27 PM
Sarah
I have found a few Sarah Jacobs in B'ham in 1901. The most likely seems one aged 13 the youngest shown, given that she had a baby in 1917, do you know if your grandmother was the only child? this sarah had a brother Emmanuel and another called Morris. If you think this could be the one send your email in a private message to me & I'll email the image to you. You can always delete it if you think that it is not the correct family. The parents & older children were born in London, so that could explain the Stoke Newington connection.

Peter Goodey
04-01-2005, 11:37 PM
I can't help thinking that it would be worth your while to touch base with some British Jewish genealogical sites, mailing lists etc. You might be more likely to find the right specialised knowledge there than on a general forum.

Rossbret
05-01-2005, 2:50 AM
Hi Jan

I have just received my grandmothers birth certificate and on it she was born in Raddle Barn Road, Selly Oak, it then goes on to say Sarah Jacobs was a munition worker at 12 Summer Lane, Birmingham.

I guessed my grandmother was born in Birmingham but not sure why she was taken to Stoke Newington and brought up there.

Thanks for your help so far,

Sarah
Hello Sarah,
When your Grandmother was born 1917 at Raddlebarn Road - this was the Kings Norton Union Workhouse (which incidentally became a part of Birmingham in 1911).
Now this is a possibility - if her Mother Sarah was born in London (or Stoke Newington) then that could be her place of settlement as far as the cost of poor relief was concerned.
Having a Baby without the means to provide for it (which is indicated by the Birth occuring in the Workhouse) was a Moral Offence under the Mental Health Act, and as such Sarah could quite possibly have been institutionalised.

When the large former Asylums closed in the 80's and 90's under the new "Care in the Community" there were many Patients who had been institutionalised in them for many years following the "offence" of having a Baby in those circumstances.

All the best, Jan

Rossbret
05-01-2005, 3:00 AM
[QUOTE=Rossbret]Hello Sarah,
When your Grandmother was born 1917 at Raddlebarn Road - this was the Kings Norton Union Workhouse (which incidentally became a part of Birmingham in 1911).

Forgot to add that a step forward would be to email Birmingham Archives and check with them which records you can access for Kings Norton (Selly Oak) Workhouse in 1917.
This might provide you with vital information regarding Janet and/or Sarah and the reason for her going to Stoke Newington.

Are you located near to Birmingham?

All the best, Jan

sascha
17-01-2005, 2:42 PM
Hi Jan

I will contact BirminghamArchives and see what i can find out. I have a funny feeling that Raddle Barn Road was some sort of institution and my grandmother remembers her mother to be in a big house, so we think she may have had an illness and was in hospital for most of her life, although this needs to be backed up.

I actually live in Hertfordshire so unfortunately nowhere near Birmingham.

I will look into it further.

Thanks for all your help.

jjconlon
28-07-2009, 12:06 PM
Hi wounder if anyone can help
my Grandmother Mary Dolphin was born at this address in 1917
I understand that she was also listed as living at Cheapside Digbeth Birmingham at the same time. I know that they where very poor and I was told by my Grandmother mary that her mother was Ann or Annie Dolphin madan name of Conlon had around 14 children but most of these children never made to the ages of 5 years old

can anyone tall me if there is any photos out there on this 2 Raddlebarn Road
or where on the upto date map of selly oak it would have once been

thanks you

terrysfamily
28-07-2009, 12:16 PM
I too have a great aunt who had a child out of wedlock and was put into an institution.

I asked at the Shropshire archives if I could find out which institution and the name of her child as I would like to make contact.

Their reply was that as she had been institutionalised the record were sealed for the period of 100 years, what a total |moon|that is.

Mutley
28-07-2009, 12:29 PM
Hi wounder if anyone can help
my Grandmother Mary Dolphin was born at this address in 1917
I understand that she was also listed as living at Cheapside Digbeth Birmingham at the same time. I know that they where very poor and I was told by my Grandmother mary that her mother was Ann or Annie Dolphin madan name of Conlon had around 14 children but most of these children never made to the ages of 5 years old

can anyone tall me if there is any photos out there on this 2 Raddlebarn Road
or where on the upto date map of selly oak it would have once been

thanks you

If you google for workhouses.org.uk and type Raddlebarn Road into the search box you will find lots of information and pictures as well as a map.

Do you have her birth certificate?
You can order it from the GRO (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/Registeringlifeevents/Familyhistoryandresearch/Birthmarriageanddeathcertificates/DG_175628) using the details below

Mary V. Dolphin birth registered in Dec 1917 at Kings N. 6d/59
Mothers maiden name is Conlon

Mutley
28-07-2009, 12:38 PM
If you spend a bit of time playing with FreeBMD changing dates and places you may find some of the other children.

There was a Joseph birth registered in June 1913 at Birmingham 6d/620.
I cannot see his death or any other births for children named Dolphin with mother's maiden name of Conlon but the mother's maiden name is not on the index prior to 1912.

Mutley
28-07-2009, 1:25 PM
There is quite a bit of information given on this thread
RADDLEBARN ROAD SELLY OAK BIRMINGHAM (http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26334)

mikejee
28-07-2009, 1:56 PM
If you go to the thread http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26334 then you will see that this address was used for disguising those born in the workhouse.
As to Ann at cheapside, I’m not sure what is happening here, but the following comes from the electoral roll (for the 1912 roll women were not included, and it was possible to qualify by owning property or having a business);

1912 Dolphin George No.4, court 3 cheapside . Other qualifying property Angelina St and 58 Moseley Road
1920 Dolphin George Richard no 9 court 25 Cheapside
Dolphin Ann no 9 court 25 Cheapside
Robinson George no 9 court 25 Cheapside

George Richard and Ann were at that address till 1935.
A George and a Margaret Dolphin were at No 10 court 25 Cheapside in 1930 and 1935.
There is a George and Ann and joseph dolphin at 171 Highgate road in 1939
Cheapside address, possibly a business, and
Ann remained with him, although her child was born in the workhouse.

Hope this is of some use

jjconlon
29-07-2009, 6:50 AM
Thank you very much for all that info
the story I have is that

George Richard Dolphin my Great Grandfather came from a somewhat rich family. But as soon as he married Ann Conlon Hows father was John Conlon
and came from Co Cork Ireland spoke very little english and the Dolphin Family disownd George

And Cheapside was more of a back to back slum than riches
George & his son George joined up on the out break of war ie ww1
George Richard Dolphin was in the Royal Warwickshire Regiment 3rd Battalion
who I have got hold of his Service records but

for young George Dolphin how I can't find any service papers for served in the Kings royal Rifle Corp

never know about the other address in Highgate Road so this could well be a Buisness ??

thanks joe

jjconlon
29-07-2009, 7:35 AM
If you google for workhouses.org.uk and type Raddlebarn Road into the search box you will find lots of information and pictures as well as a map.

Do you have her birth certificate?
You can order it from the GRO (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/Registeringlifeevents/Familyhistoryandresearch/Birthmarriageanddeathcertificates/DG_175628) using the details below

Mary V. Dolphin birth registered in Dec 1917 at Kings N. 6d/59
Mothers maiden name is Conlon

thank you very much for your time. yes I have her birth certificate and I have just been on the workhouse.org its great do you know I have been past and event in the buildings that still stand to day canny or what
thanks
joe

jjconlon
29-07-2009, 7:39 AM
I too have a great aunt who had a child out of wedlock and was put into an institution.

I asked at the Shropshire archives if I could find out which institution and the name of her child as I would like to make contact.

Their reply was that as she had been institutionalised the record were sealed for the period of 100 years, what a total |moon|that is.

What I don't understand is she was married but I know they where very poor and at the time of the birth my great grandfather George Richard Dolphin was fighting for his country during ww1

maybe this is why she was in the workhouse ???

joe

jjconlon
29-07-2009, 7:47 AM
If you go to the thread http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26334 then you will see that this address was used for disguising those born in the workhouse.
As to Ann at cheapside, Iím not sure what is happening here, but the following comes from the electoral roll (for the 1912 roll women were not included, and it was possible to qualify by owning property or having a business);

1912 Dolphin George No.4, court 3 cheapside . Other qualifying property Angelina St and 58 Moseley Road
1920 Dolphin George Richard no 9 court 25 Cheapside
Dolphin Ann no 9 court 25 Cheapside
Robinson George no 9 court 25 Cheapside

George Richard and Ann were at that address till 1935.
A George and a Margaret Dolphin were at No 10 court 25 Cheapside in 1930 and 1935.
There is a George and Ann and joseph dolphin at 171 Highgate road in 1939
Cheapside address, possibly a business, and
Ann remained with him, although her child was born in the workhouse.

Hope this is of some use

thank you once again for your help its great to get info like this

joe