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Cassie2008
15-05-2008, 12:36 PM
Hi
Could anyone help with William Whittenmair, who married Elsie Broomhead. They had one child Queenie Whitenmair, who grew up and married John Paul MacInnes. William was born in the 1880's and fought in the war for the British, his family were from Germany and I am unsure whether or not he was born in Germany or came here when he was a baby. William was a butcher who worked for Hahns. He lived in the Bradford area. Queenie was born in 1922, but I cant seem to get up a marriage for William and Elsie on BMD.

birdlip
15-05-2008, 12:48 PM
Hi there,

is this William's birth on freebmd?

Jun 1878

WITTENMAIR William Henry Bradford Y 9b 91

Mutley
15-05-2008, 1:00 PM
Sorry, I cannot see a marriage either.
The only remote possibility is Ettie K Broomhead who married a William J. Whatmore in Middlesbrough in 1914. 9d/1186

birdlip
15-05-2008, 1:01 PM
.. and his marriage?

Jun 1914
WHATMORE William J Broomhead Middlesbro 9d 1186
( on the same page is Ettie K Broomhead)

and two children;

Jun 1915 WHATMORE William A Broomhead Middlesbro 9d 1182
Jun 1920 WHATMORE Ronald Broomhead Middlesbro 9d 1280

regards birdlip

salcat
15-05-2008, 1:07 PM
There is a marriage for George Wittenmair

June 1906 Bradford 9b 49

DUKES Christiana Lockwood
Sutcliffe Ethel
Thornton Fred
Wittenmair George

A relative?

S

Mutley
15-05-2008, 1:11 PM
If Birdlip has the correct birth then I would think this is him in 1881.

Georgia Benner 40 Servant born Germany
Fredrica Wittenmair 33 born Germany
George Wittenmair 1 born Bradford
Henrich Wittenmair 36 Pork Butcher
William Wittenmair 3 born Bradford

living at 920 Leeds Road

Class: RG11; Piece: 4443; Folio: 78; Page: 4

birdlip
15-05-2008, 1:15 PM
Looks like his brother...William is with George in the 1881 census;

RG11 4443/78 P4
920 Leeds Rd Bradford Yorks.

Heinrich WITTENMAIR head m 36 b (F) Germany Pork Butcher
Fredrica do wife m 33 b Germany
William do son 3 b Bradford Y
George do son 1 b do
Georgia Benner Servant U 40 b (F) Germany Serv

Mutley
15-05-2008, 1:15 PM
Birth of brother George Wittenmair
Mar 1880 Bradford
9b/72

birdlip
15-05-2008, 1:15 PM
snap!

Mutley
15-05-2008, 1:18 PM
1891 as Wittenmeier
Class: RG12; Piece: 3622; Folio 25; Page 5

1901 as Whitenmair
Class: RG13; Piece: 4149; Folio: 51; Page: 17

All Butchers!

Mutley
15-05-2008, 1:19 PM
Haven't we done well?

Just shows how several heads are better than one:)

birdlip
15-05-2008, 1:25 PM
We have!!

I do wonder about that 1914 marriage.

Plenty of people with German sounding names would have been tempted to anglicise them at the outbreak of WW1.

Mutley
15-05-2008, 1:52 PM
I agree, I wonder if there is a service record for him and what name he used. Several medal cards for William Whatmore but nothing for anything like Wittenmair.
Though I am not very good with the LMA searching:confused:

salcat
15-05-2008, 2:20 PM
Hi
Could anyone help with William Whittenmair, who married Elsie Broomhead. They had one child Queenie Whitenmair, who grew up and married John Paul MacInnes. (snip) Queenie was born in 1922, but I cant seem to get up a marriage for William and Elsie on BMD.

But if they changed to Whatmore because of anti-German feeling, why would Queenie be a Whitenmair in 1922? (not that I've found a reference yet:D)

Do you have Queenies marriage or birth certificates? What is her surname on those?

S

Cassie2008
15-05-2008, 7:13 PM
Hi
Thank you so much everyone for the information I had been given the wrong spelling, unfortunately I was told because of the war they had changed the name spelling etc and I think we have had the wrong spelling which is why I had been unable to bring him up anywhere. This is absolutely brilliant. Thank you very much!
It is very much appreciated.

Cassie2008
15-05-2008, 7:15 PM
I only have details of her death certificate, but she was MacInnes then, I cant seem to trace her birth.

Cassie2008
15-05-2008, 8:37 PM
I would like to say thanks for all the information I have been given regarding the Wittenmairs. I have now been able to find a marriage for Heinrich wittenmair to Friederike Reick in June 1877 in Bradford. (Again Friederike's name has been spelled differently Fredrica in census returns). I may also have found when Heinrich came from Germany (Sept 1864) and his birthplace Garnberg. It is still a mystery regarding Elsie and William's marriage at the moment. I think its a matter of my trying all the spellings. Thanks very much for the help. Its much appreciated. I am now looking up Friederike Reick and when she arrived in Britain. You have all done so well to get us this far.

salcat
15-05-2008, 8:55 PM
If you get a copy of Queenie's death certificate, it should show her maiden name as well as her married name, which might help in looking for William's marriage/her birth.

S

Cassie2008
15-05-2008, 9:02 PM
Hi I just wanted to let you all know I have also found the Wittenmair family listed on a british jewish organisation. We did have think that William could have been Jewish, because of what was happening in Germany at the time, but we were not sure of the name Wittenmair. It is getting very exciting now. Queenie is my nana and the name was spelled Whitenmair I cant work out why we cant find her birth though. I will keep trying different spellings.

Cassie2008
15-05-2008, 9:03 PM
If you get a copy of Queenie's death certificate, it should show her maiden name as well as her married name, which might help in looking for William's marriage/her birth.

S
Thanks very much I will try that. I have the details. I think my aunt has the certificate.

Mutley
15-05-2008, 9:37 PM
So pleased that you are getting somewhere Cassie, it's exciting for us too;)


If you get a copy of Queenie's death certificate, it should show her maiden name as well as her married name, which might help in looking for William's marriage/her birth.

S

Not all female death certificates show a maiden name. I don't know if this became a requirement at some point but I have a 1967 certificate that does not have a column for a maiden name. An informant may not know this information.

Mutley
15-05-2008, 9:45 PM
Just a thought, maybe Queenie is not her birth name. I know a Corinne who uses it as a nickname. I also think that it could be a form of Kathleen.

Mind you, it is not going to be an easy task to try variations of both a first and last name.:confused:

salcat
15-05-2008, 9:48 PM
Not all female death certificates show a maiden name. I don't know if this became a requirement at some point but I have a 1967 certificate that does not have a column for a maiden name. An informant may not know this information.

Happy to be corrected :D

I hope your certificate does though

S

Mutley
15-05-2008, 10:11 PM
Sorry, I have become confused with what you have and what you are still looking for.
Spotted Fredericka Whitenmair's death in case you have not got it.
Birth abt 1847 Death Dec 1915 Bradford. 9b/198

Maybe you could do us a recap of what is still missing?

Mutley
15-05-2008, 10:14 PM
:D

I hope your certificate does though

S

I hope so too. I do have a 1973 one that does, so fingers crossed.

birdlip
15-05-2008, 11:14 PM
Good morning all....great to see all the progress overnight, and you're right Mutley, it IS exciting for us too!

Cassie2008
16-05-2008, 5:25 AM
Hi I have at last found Queenie Whitenmair's birth. 7 December 1922 in Bradford. I am still not finding William Whitenmair and Elsie Broomhead's marriage though. I am pretty sure he was using Whitenmair because of Queenie named as Whitenmair at birth. I am very much appreciating the help We would not have got this far without it. Particularly because of all the different spellings.

Cassie2008
16-05-2008, 5:27 AM
Sorry, I have become confused with what you have and what you are still looking for.
Spotted Fredericka Whitenmair's death in case you have not got it.
Birth abt 1847 Death Dec 1915 Bradford. 9b/198

Maybe you could do us a recap of what is still missing?

Thank you very much for the information. I didnt have the date of death.
I am still looking for the marriage for William Whitenmair and Elsie Broomhead. Thanks.

birdlip
16-05-2008, 10:31 AM
Hi Cassie,

any luck with the marriage yet? Try as I might, I still can't find it, nor can I get the 1914 Whatmore / Broomfield marriage in Middlesborough out of my head. Just bear with me for a minute..

I note that you were "told because of the war they had to change the name spelling," but even though you've found several spelling variations so far, they don't seem to be all that different to any that might normally be expected with an unusual surname..not necessarily a name that might actually be CHOSEN to avoid attention.

Is it possible that by 1922, when Queenie was born, the crisis was over and so they reverted to the original surname? Also,as Queenie was born in Bradford, there would be no point in keeping the assumed name, because everyone there would know William was the son of the German pork butcher anyway.

I wonder if Elsie came from Middlesborough? If William was away, perhaps she stayed in Middlesborough with her family for the duration of the war? On the record, Elsie, if badly written, could easily be read as Ettie.

I know you have no knowledge of Queenie having older brothers, also William marrying in Middlesbro is William J, so perhaps I'm way off course with this!

Thoughts anyone?

Cassie2008
17-05-2008, 4:41 AM
Hi
Thank you very much for your reply. It does seem a mystery about the marriage. I know that Elsie was married previously, but her husband died. I dont think they were married very long. His name was Spencer (I think) they had no children. I have found Elsie on 1901 census aged 7 living at 10 Cooperative Buildings Wike Bradford, but she and her younger brother were born in Fortpatrick, Scotland. All the other siblings were born in Bradford.
I have only gone another couple of generations on the Broomhead side so there may be links with Middlesborough. Her grandfather Hemen Broomhead was born in Rastrick, Yorkshire. Thanks for all the help! We never thought we would find anything out about William, so we are very pleased!

Cassie2008
17-05-2008, 4:55 AM
Could we just say thanks to everyone that has helped with this query. We didnt think we would find much out about William. (thought he was born in Germany!) We now have details of parents and their marriage. We have ordered certificate so should get even further. We have tried before and found nothing so a very big thank you.

birdlip
17-05-2008, 7:37 AM
Hi Cassie,

well I was totally WRONG!!! Forget the Middlesbro marriage!

I don't think any of us knew that Elsie had been married before... which changes everything, because she would have married William under her married name, not Broomhead.
I looked first for a marriage for Elsie Broomhead to someone with a name like Spencer, and came up straight away with this;

Jun 1915
BROOMHEAD Elsie SPENSLEY N Bierley 9b 115
(and on the same page Fred SPENSLEY)

then looked for a marriage for Elsie SPENSLEY, and here it is!

Sep 1921
SPENSLEY Elsie WHITEMAIR N Brierley 9b 60
(and on the same page William WHITENM_IR)

Cassie2008
17-05-2008, 8:28 AM
Hi Cassie,

well I was totally WRONG!!! Forget the Middlesbro marriage!

I don't think any of us knew that Elsie had been married before... which changes everything, because she would have married William under her married name, not Broomhead.
I looked first for a marriage for Elsie Broomhead to someone with a name like Spencer, and came up straight away with this;

Jun 1915
BROOMHEAD Elsie SPENSLEY N Bierley 9b 115
(and on the same page Fred SPENSLEY)

then looked for a marriage for Elsie SPENSLEY, and here it is!

Sep 1921
SPENSLEY Elsie WHITEMAIR N Brierley 9b 60
(and on the same page William WHITENM_IR)

Thank you so much for this! I didnt even think of the fact that she could have had a different name when marrying him. I was beginning to think that they may not have married. This is brilliant. I have also learned something more about searching. Many thanks.

Cassie2008
17-05-2008, 8:32 AM
Hi thanks everyone for all the help. I thought I would update on what is happening. I received a marriage certificate. (extremely quickly, I only ordered it yesterday!) Heinrich Wittenmair and Friederike Reick married on 25th April 1877. Heinrich's father was Balthas Wittenmair (farmer) and Friederike's father Johan Reick(Tailor), deceased. Never thought we would find out this far! Witnesses were Robart Lonsdale and Frederick Hartman. I have found a few Johans who could be possibilities in Germany.