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Geoffwhittaker
07-05-2007, 9:29 PM
Can anyone help find this persons birth records. He was born in Newcastle in 1837 just before registry records began, so I assume there is a parish record somewhere. I know his father was John Grant.

Allan turns up on the 1851 census (in Jail) but is not on the 1841. Can anyone look at any parish records in Newcastle for details of his birth. As I live in South Wales there is no chance of me getting to Newcastle to research this.

Many thanks for helping.

birdlip
12-05-2007, 11:48 AM
Hi Geoff,
I couldn't find him either, but this looks like his father and siblings in 1851;

HO 107 2406; F 145; P 4

Golden Lion Yard, Newcastle upon Tyne, St John

John Grant 50 head wid brush manufacturer traveller b N Shields
Wm Grant 21 son u brush maker b Newcastle
Isabella Grant 10 dau b Newcastle

Hope this helps, regards, Birdlip

Geoffwhittaker
13-05-2007, 9:29 PM
Hi Mate

Thanks for the reply regarding Allan Grant. I sure didn't expect to get a reply from Oz.

I will have a closer look at the information you sent me. He was my wife's great, great, great grandfather and I have been in discussion with another member of her family, but we are both at the same dead end with Allan Grant. It sounds like you may be on to something as I don''t know the names any of his brothers or sisters, just that his father was John. I think he was a brushfinisher at least it looks something like that on Allan's wedding certificate to Margaret Robinson.

Many thanks for the effort. I will get back to you when I find out some more to let you know the outcome.

Iechydd Dda (a bit of Welsh for you)

Geoff

Peter Goodey
14-05-2007, 7:08 AM
This might be Isabella's birth

Births Mar 1841:

Grant Isabella Newcastle on Tyne 25 349

If you can confirm that they are siblings, you might find it useful to order the certificate.

However, you need to use the parish registers to find things out for sure. The 1851 census found them in St John's parish. If that's the right family (a very big "if"), you may want to start with that parish

And no, you don't have to go to Newcastle to do it. The mormons have filmed them.
"Parish registers of St. John's Church, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, 1587-1941".

See http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Library/FHLC/frameset_fhlc.asp

Geoffwhittaker
14-05-2007, 8:59 AM
Hi Peter

Thanks for the reply. The only thing I know for sure is that Allan Grant's father was called John, after that I have been unsuccessful, so I have no idea who his mother was or whether he had any brothers or sisters. The only other information I have is that he was in jail at the 1851 census, I would be interested to find out what for, he was born in Newcastle and worked as a brushmaker

I had a reply yesterday from a member in Oz who gave me some names that may match. The interesting thing here is that the names of William (brother) Isabella (sister) and John (father) carry on through the next generations so it may be his family which I will begin to look at.

Thanks for the information about parish records, I will check that as well.

Geoff

Geoffwhittaker
14-05-2007, 11:57 AM
Hi Mate, It's Geoff again. Can you tell where you found your information on John Grant and his family as I'm having trouble locating them.

Thanks

Geoff

jeeb
14-05-2007, 12:43 PM
Hi Geoff,

Here he is in 1841 but I'm not surprised you couldn't find him as he is indexed as 'GROESCH' but it is Grant as I have checked.

HO107/845 Folio 7 Page 7
Tindale, All Saints, Newcastle.
John 35 Brass Founder
Jone 35
Jone 14
William 12 Brush Maker
Allen 5
James 2
Isabella 2mths
All born in county

The name of wife and probable daughter are indexed Jone but the way the enumerator has written his 'a' makes me suspect it should read Jane.
Remember on the 1841 census all ages over 15 are rounded down to the nearest 5 (ie John could be 35-39 years old) and no family relationship is given.

Cheers Jeremy

Geoffwhittaker
14-05-2007, 1:34 PM
Hi Jeremy

Wow how did you get that information. It sure looks like the family although Allen is spelled as Allan on his marriage certificate and William is a witness. Great stuff. All I've got to do now is find his mother's maiden name. I have a document which shows a John Grant marrying a Janet Cameron on 4th June 1837 In All Saints Newcastle. What do you think? Could it be them?

I can't thank you enough

Geoff

jeeb
14-05-2007, 3:04 PM
Hi Geoff,
There is a strong possibility that John Grant married in 1837 because there is a large gap in age between the 2 oldest children and the 3 youngest which suggests different mothers. I would not worry unduly about the spelling of Allan, ages, birthplaces and spelling vary greatly on censuses.

Jeremy

Geoffwhittaker
14-05-2007, 3:23 PM
Hi Jeremy

Thanks for your ideas. I suppose Janet Cameron could then be Allen's mother as she married John about the same time that Allen was born in 1837. Can you tell me where you found the information and is it a free site

When I posted this thread I never expected any replies as it is the first time I have ever done this, but people like yourself have been most helpful and I am very grateful.

Cheers

Geoff

jeeb
15-05-2007, 9:54 AM
Hi Geoff,
Firstly may I ask how you know Allan was in prison in 1851, I cannot find any trace of him in 1851?

There are two possible deaths for a Janet Grant registered in Newcastle upon Tyne:-

Janet Grant Jul/Sept 1841 vol 25 page 2(06)5?
Janet Grant Jan/Mar 1848 vol 25 page 294
The first one is most likely because it fits well with the birth of Isabella, the youngest child.

There is a birth registration for James Grant Oct/Dec 1838 Newcastle upon Tyne vol 25 page 299 (This could be Allan's brother)
There are three possible death registrations for James Grant too in early 1840's.

All these names have a strong Scottish connection and it would be my guess that is where they originate from.

Jeremy

birdlip
15-05-2007, 10:22 AM
My goodness Geoff! I stop paying attention for 24 hours and when I look again, there are an extra 10 replies!! Fantastic!

I got the 1851 info from Ancestry. I had a feeling it probably might be the right family, because I'd had a quick look at Allens occupation in later censuses, but the repetition of first names in subsequent generations is encouraging, isnt it?

Good luck, Birdlip

Geoffwhittaker
15-05-2007, 10:57 AM
Hi

Thanks for the reply, I couldn't believe the response either and yours was the first so I guess got the others looking as well. Many thanks for what you did I think you got it right.

Geoff

jeeb
15-05-2007, 11:04 AM
Hi Geoff,
Sorry Geoff, just noticed I made a slight gaff with 1841 census. Both wife & daughter Jone (Jane)were stated as born Ireland not in county as I said originally.

Jeremy

Geoffwhittaker
15-05-2007, 11:06 AM
Hi Jeremy

Thanks again for the information. I am convinced you found the right family and that Janet Grant (nee Cameron) is John's wife. I have no absolute proof but all fits together.

With regard to Allan in prison, I found him on the 1851 census HO 107 2407 I have a copy of the census printout showing him in the Borough Gaol Carlisle Square. I missed him for a while but realised it had to be him as the age and name fits. I have no idea what he did, but he obviously didn't get sent to Australia because he later moved to Kendal and married and later generations stayed there message=Hi Jeremy

Thanks again for the information. I am convinced you found the right family and that Janet Grant (nee Cameron) is John's wife. I have no absolute proof but all fits together.

With regard to Allan in prison, I found him on the 1851 census HO 107 2407 I have a copy of the census printout showing him in the Borough Gaol Carlisle Square. I missed him for a while but realised it had to be him as the age and name fits. I have no idea what he did, but he obviously didn't get sent to Australia because he later moved to Kendal and married and later generations stayed there until the early 1900s when they moved to Lancashire. Any idea how I could find out what he was in for?

Cheers

Geoff

Geoffwhittaker
15-05-2007, 11:08 AM
Jeremy

The Ireland births, is that a mistake or were they both from there.

Geoff

jeeb
15-05-2007, 11:16 AM
Hi Geoff,
It states that Jane aged 35 & Jane aged 14 were born Ireland, All the rest including John were born in county. (Northumberland) The 1851 states John's birthplace as North Shields. The indexer has written Ireland interpretting it as an I for Ireland but it could be a 'y' for born Scotland /Ireland.

Jeremy

jeeb
15-05-2007, 11:26 AM
Hi again Geoff,
I think if your John Grant married Janet Cameron in 1837 she will be the mother of Allan, James & Isabella. Send for the birth certificate of Isabella and it will give the mother's maiden name, one snag, if she was married to a Mr Cameron before she married John Grant it might give her birth name which would not be Cameron.

Jeremy

Geoffwhittaker
15-05-2007, 11:49 AM
Hi Jeremy

Thanks again, I think I will send for a birth certificate to see what it says. I always thought that the Grant side of my wife's family would have originated from Scotland, but never thought about Ireland. Tell you what there is a load of Ginger in my wife's family including her, so I reckon that's the celtic genes.

Geoff

Geoffwhittaker
17-05-2007, 6:08 PM
Hi Jeremy

I have sent for the birth certificate of Isabella Grant to see who her parents are, so if you are interested I will let you know in about a week. Have you any ideas where I could get records of Newcastle gaol in March 1851 to see what Allan was in for.

Geoff

Geoffwhittaker
25-05-2007, 9:29 AM
Hi Jeremy

Just to let you know that I have received the birth certificate of Isabella Grant 1841 and it confirms that Janet Cameron was her mother, so all the information on the Grants (or Groesch) in Newcastle fits. Many thanks for your help. The next step is now to go back another generation with John Grant and Janet Cameron.

Geoff

jeeb
30-05-2007, 11:22 PM
Hi Geoff,
Good news about Janet Cameron being the mother. Problem arises now as to whether she was the mother of the two eldest children Jane & William mentioned on the 1841 census. It does seem odd that it states both Jane Snr & Jnr were born Ireland and unfortunately it looks like both are dead by 1851. The 1851 gives William's birthplace as Newcastle.

With regards to the cause of Allen being in gaol in 1851. The Tyne & Wear Archive Services hold Quarter Session books which cover the period and he is likely to be mentioned in there, unfortunately there is a search charge of 25/hour.

Jeremy

Geoffwhittaker
31-05-2007, 11:20 AM
Hi Jeremy

The Ireland references are a bit of a mystery, because I was wondering whether Jane and William were in fact the children of John Grant from a previous marriage, before he married Janet Cameron and then had the three other offspring. If both Janet and her daughter Jane were born in Ireland then this could not be the case. I have no idea whether adoption happened in those days or how the two eldest children got the name of Grant

Thanks for the information about Newcastle gaol, I had seen that in the archive services, so may well have to spend 25.

Thanks for your thoughts once again, it is helpful to have someone to bounce ideas off.

Geoff