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my-tree-is-full-of-nuts
14-05-2006, 6:47 PM
Hi All,
I am new to this list and would really appreciate any help with this.

My grt. grt. grandfather Charles Samuel Lakeman born about 1816, married 1847 in Plymouth. on his marriage he gave his occupation as Bandsman, RN.

He died in 1852 at the Royal Hospital, Southampton age 36, named as Samuel Lakeman.

I have not been able to find him on the 1841 census, I presume he was at sea. He is not on the 1851 either but I have found his wife and children living in Stoke Damerel, Devon.

I have tried the National Archives site but their online records are not early enough to list him.

If I can manage to get to Kew to look him up can anyone point me in the direction of the correct records to consult.

I was just reading another post on this board and it seems that being a bandsman he may have been Royal Marines and not Navy.

Many thanks for any help.

Carole

Geoffers
14-05-2006, 9:58 PM
My grt. grt. grandfather Charles Samuel Lakeman born about 1816, married 1847 in Plymouth. on his marriage he gave his occupation as Bandsman, RN. He died in 1852 at the Royal Hospital, Southampton age 36, named as Samuel Lakeman. I have tried the National Archives site but their online records are not early enough to list him.
I suggest first trying TNA's online catalogue
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/default.asp
enter 'LAKEMAN' in the word or phrase field, and then 'ADM' in the department or series code - then search.

I think your old boy may be in the first document listed ADM29/44/464 (enlisted 1838, aged 22), you can order a copy online.

If you cannot find him in the 1851 census, he may be in a hospital or other institution, just recorded under his initials.

Geoffers

my-tree-is-full-of-nuts
14-05-2006, 11:30 PM
H Geoffers,
Many thanks for that reference, it may well be him.
I will order the record from Kew it will save me having to take a day out.

It says in the National Archives reference, Born ( Not given) do you know if that means that it will have no date of birth on his record.
I was hoping that it might give details of his next of kin and birthplace.

I suppose he could have been in hospital in 1851 but there was another son born in 1852, 4 months after his death., so he was well enough to father a son.

Thanks once again for your help, I was just searching the online records.

Carole

my-tree-is-full-of-nuts
15-05-2006, 12:12 AM
Hi Geoffers,
Another question if I may. I have just done a Google search on the hospital where he died. Royal Hospital, Haslar, Gosport.

It seems that in 1852 it was a Naval hospital, I wondered if he would have been taken in there if he finished his service in 1850, especially as his home address was in Devon.

Carole.

Geoffers
15-05-2006, 8:37 AM
It says in the National Archives reference, Born ( Not given) do you know if that means that it will have no date of birth on his record.
That's correct, the basic information is indexed - so there is an age, but not date of birth for the record which may be your chap.


I was hoping that it might give details of his next of kin and birthplace.
This record won't provide that, it is a series of ships on which this chap served, so that you can at least tie down where and when someone enlisted. You may also then turn to ships' musters which should record several bits of information, including:

Number, entry and year, appearance, age (at entry on ship), place and country of birth and reseaon for discharge.

So, one of the musters may give a place of birth, a muster at the end of his service should show the reason why he was discharged - it may have the letters DS (Discharged to sick quarters) followed by a brief note as to the sickness/disability.


but there was another son born in 1852, 4 months after his death., so he was well enough to father a son.
Possibly, but possibly not!

Geoffers

Geoffers
15-05-2006, 8:39 AM
Another question if I may. I have just done a Google search on the hospital where he died. Royal Hospital, Haslar, Gosport.

Yes, I know Haslar. He could well have been taken ill/been injured and hung on for some time before popping his clogs.

Geoffers

my-tree-is-full-of-nuts
15-05-2006, 8:12 PM
Hi Geoffers,
Many thanks for the replies, your answers have given me another question, if you don't mind.

When I get the record from the National Archives and find out which ships he served on how then do I get to see the ships musters, can I order those on line as well or will I have to go to Kew to look at them?

According to his marriage certificate, in 1841 ( sorry gave wrong date in original message) he was on HMS Agincourt, so that is a start.

You have also given me something to think about with your comment "possibly, possibly not" regarding the birth of the son ( who was my grt. grandfather) born 4 months after his father died.

It reminded me of the saying " you can always be sure who your mother is"

It could well be when I get his record and consult the musters there may be some surprises.

I have had another look at his death certificate, the writing on it is not very clear but I can see he died of Phthisis and it looks like underneath that, it says 4 years, PM Certified.

Thanks once again, I will let you know what the record reveals.

Carole

Geoffers
15-05-2006, 10:06 PM
When I get the record from the National Archives and find out which ships he served on how then do I get to see the ships musters, can I order those on line as well or will I have to go to Kew to look at them?
This will be a visit to Kew to see the musters. I recommend looking at TNA's web-site beforehand, especially the research guides.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/researchguidesindex.asp?j=1
Click on 'R' and scroll through the various links under Royal Navy and Royal Marines.


According to his marriage certificate, in 1841 ( sorry gave wrong date in original message) he was on HMS Agincourt, so that is a start.
I don't know how long he was on the ship, but this page on Paul Benyon's site may be of interest
http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/18-1900/A/00107.html

continued......

Geoffers
15-05-2006, 10:06 PM
part 2.....


You have also given me something to think about with your comment "possibly, possibly not" regarding the birth of the son
I don't want to cast unwanted doubt, but it is always best to keep an open mind to all possibilities. In my wife's family, a son was born to a mother who registered the birth and gave the name of her husband as father, problem was that the birth was in 1887 and her husband died in 1882. I've considered approaching the Guinness Book of Records to claim a record for the longest pregnancy.


I have had another look at his death certificate, the writing on it is not very clear but I can see he died of Phthisis and it looks like underneath that, it says 4 years, PM Certified.
Phthisis is another name for Tuberculosis, also known as Consumption.

Geoffers

my-tree-is-full-of-nuts
16-05-2006, 10:54 PM
Hi Geoffers,
Many thanks for the information, I will have to wait and see what the record holds when it arrives.

You certainly gave me a laugh with your wife's relative, I hope she had moved away from her address of 1882 by the time she gave birth in 1887, otherwise it would have given the neighbours something to talk about.

I will come back and let you know what the record reveals.

Thank you once again for your time and assistance.

Carole.

my-tree-is-full-of-nuts
23-05-2006, 3:14 PM
Hi Geoffers,
The record has arrived this morning and I think this is definitley my man.

These are the ships he served on Ganges, Dec. 1838 to Feb. 1842,
Thunderer, Feb. 1842 to Feb. 1843, Spiteful, Feb. 1843 to Sept. 1843, Agincourt Sept. 1843 to Sept. 1847, Asia Sept. 1847 to Oct. 1847 and Asia again Nov. 1847 to Oct. 1849 which is crossed out and underneath it says 22 May 1850 arrived England.

In the middle column at the top it says AB which I take it means able seaman, then further down the column there is a word I can't read, could be bandsman, musician or ?seaman

On the right hand side in the last column there are a lot of numbers, I have no idea what these mean.

I have had another look at his marrige certificate and he was married in 1847, the writing is very poor and last time I looked at it I thought it said 1841. On the certificate he gives his address as HMS Agincourt, that would correspond with this record.

I will have to find a day now to go to the National Archives to look at the muster rolls, could you give me an idea where to look for them, is there a series number for them, or is it a different section for each ship.

Many thanks.
Carole.

Geoffers
23-05-2006, 3:37 PM
I will have to find a day now to go to the National Archives to look at the muster rolls, could you give me an idea where to look for them, is there a series number for them, or is it a different section for each ship.
Here's where you can use TNA's catalogue to your advantage. Click on
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/default.asp
enter 'Agincourt' in the name field, restrict teh dates to whatever you want, e.g. 1840 - 1850
and in the department or series code, enter ADM (short for Admiralty, most RN records have this code).

Now hit search, you'll probably get a list of entries over 2 or more pages. I would guess that there will be some under ADM51 (captain's log - possibly only one entry for this) ADM53 (ship's logs, there might be a few for this) and probably most under ADM38 (musters). The full reference ADM38/** is what you want. If you have a reader's ticket you can order the document to be reader on a specific day when you are visiting TNA.

Geoffers

my-tree-is-full-of-nuts
23-05-2006, 8:31 PM
Hello Geoffers,
Many thanks for that information, another couple of questions if I may.

In the ships muster rolls, would I be better off to look at the one for the first ship he sailed on to see where he enlisted or would it have that information in the muster roll for each ship he was on.

Also do you think it would be worth looking at the last one as well to see if there is any mention of him being sick, or is it not likely to contain that sort of info.

I have done the searches on TNA website and found the ADM/38 for the years he was serving. After some of the ships it has a letter such as Asia D and then Asia M , would this be different ships, as I can't figure out what the letters mean.

I do have a readers ticket but I haven't been there for some years, I hope it hasn't expired.

Carole

Geoffers
23-05-2006, 10:11 PM
In the ships muster rolls, would I be better off to look at the one for the first ship he sailed on to see where he enlistedThat's the first muster I'd look at in your position.


Also do you think it would be worth looking at the last one as well to see if there is any mention of him being sickThat's the next muster I'd check. You are likely to see various capital letters recorded. These are abbreviations which the RN liked to use.

When a man left a ship, the common abbrevations for the reason are
D = Dishcarged, DD = Discharged Dead, R = Run (i.e. done a bunk). You may also see DS - Discharged to Sick Quarters or DUS - Discharged Unserviceable.

continued...

Geoffers
23-05-2006, 10:12 PM
part 2....

From what you have already written, I think it likely that you'll find DS and this may well be followed by H.H - the abbreviation for Haslar Hospital; or less likely H.S - Hospital Ship.


I have done the searches on TNA website and found the ADM/38 for the years he was serving. After some of the ships it has a letter such as Asia D and then Asia M
These represent different types of muster and yet more abbreviations favoured by the RN.

Within the series ADM38, you may find the following suffix letters after a ship's name:

M = A Quarterly Muster
C = Complete Books, including an alphabet (this is a simple index grouping those with the same surname together)
D = Description Book - I think these are the ones which ahve a column which includes a precis of a man's service along with a physical description and place of residence.
O = Open List which covers four years
V = Victualling List

I think that's all, my memory has gone blank for the moment.........other musters in ADM36 or ADM37 have slightly different suffix letters, or they mean slightly different things. Ask again if you come across one of them

my-tree-is-full-of-nuts
24-05-2006, 11:53 PM
Hello Geoffers,
Thank you so much for all that information, I will go to TNA now well prepared.
I have tried to log into their site with my readers ticket number but it is rejecting it so I think the ticket must have expired, as I said it is a few years since I last went.

I have been on three occasions and found the staff there very helpful but they are also extremely busy and don't have time to answer detailed questions.

Without your help I think I would have been there for many hours and not found half the information I needed.

I will go as soon as can find a free day and I will come back and let you know how I get on.

Thank you once again for your help, I feel much more confident now that I will find the correct records.

Carole

Geoffers
25-05-2006, 8:00 AM
Thank you so much for all that information, I will go to TNA now well prepared. I have tried to log into their site with my readers ticket number but it is rejecting it so I think the ticket must have expired, as I said it is a few years since I last went.
I think the tickets only last three years, or so. It's been a while since I was there.


I have been on three occasions and found the staff there very helpful but they are also extremely busy and don't have time to answer detailed questions.
This is the problem. If the staff can only give basic information, you need to prepare by some other means first. I would always recommend using the research guides on TNA's web-site.....and if you get stuck, there are often people on these forums who can help a little to point you in the right direction.

continued...

Geoffers
25-05-2006, 8:01 AM
part 2....


I will go as soon as can find a free day and I will come back and let you know how I get on.
Good luck, and please do let us know what you find. It's being nosy as much as anything, but it's nice to know what happens to many of the posted queries.

It's also good if people come back and let us know if systems have changed. I can only give advice on what I know and things may have changed and improved since I last used a resource - what people post here can be a two-way learning process.

Best wishes
Geoffers

my-tree-is-full-of-nuts
07-06-2006, 10:25 PM
Hello Geoffers,
Well I finally found a day to go to The National Archives, to look up Samuel Lakeman.
My readers ticket had expired apparently they only last 3 years.

The information you gave was spot on and I found all the correct records.The ships logs and musters are in the maps room on the top floor. I had no idea that I would be given the original books to look at, I thought that I was going to be searching microfilms.

I first looked at the muster book for Ganges in 1838 this confirmed that he was born in Devonport, Devon.
In one column it says at the top, " Whether pressed or volunteer or from former book" in that column beside his name it looked like PT. Adelaide.

Then I looked at the muster for the last ship he served on, the Asia. I looked in the last book I thought he would be in April, May, June 1850. As on the original record I got from TNA his service ends 22nd May 1850 arrived England.

This one I got a copy of, it appears he was discharged on the 30th Oct. 1849, in the next column the is a word in inverted commas that I can't read, then "to await a passage to England. Invalided D553"

So it appears to me that he was still aboard the Asia in June 1850, although his seamans record says arrived England May 1850.

Next I thought I would look in the description book for the Asia hoping it would tell me more. This is excellent, it gives a full description of him, height, colour of eyes, married, his trade, musician and that he had once had small pox.
This also gave the same information that he was awaiting a passage to England, Invalided.

I would have ordered the next muster book for the Asia to see if he was still mentioned but by now I had run out of time as the latest time to order documents is 4.45 pm.

I am absolutely certain that this is my Charles Samuel Lakeman, in the description book it gives his place of residence as Stoke Damerel, which is where his wife and children lived.
Also on the Agincourt and Asia with him was William Fawkes, his wife's brother and a man called Patrick Lyons. Now Patrick Lyons married Elizabeth Lakeman after the death of her husband Charles Samuel Lakeman in 1852. These two were both bandsmen the same as Samuel Lakeman.

I think that Patrick Lyons must have been a widower as his children are on the 1851 census living with Elizabeth Lakeman.

When I get the time I will go back to TNA and see if I can find out when he actually did get back to England.

I can't thank you enough Geoffers, I couldn't have done it without your help.

Carole.

Geoffers
08-06-2006, 2:15 PM
Hello Carole

I'm so glad you got to TNA and found some useful information. Once you get used to the place, it isn't so daunting. The discrepancies you mention often have a way of sorting themselves out.

As to the original documents, after 32 years of research I still enjoy looking at original documents. The stuff you can download is great, but there's something missing when compared with handling the original documents themselves. I'm not too sure what it is, maybe the smell of the parchment or paper? The thought of handling something which may have been last looked at 100, 200 or however many years ago? Whatever it is, I still get great enjoyment from them - much to my wife's consternation.

Best wishes

Geoffers