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Julie Tyrell
06-04-2006, 3:53 PM
I have a list of questions if anybody can help me with.

1. Could a woman take a man's name even though they weren't married and be buried with the man's name? (in the 1920's)

2. If the woman can take a man's name and she had a child could she put for example Florence Bryan formerly Howse on the birth ceritifcate.

I believed that Florence HOWSE married Francis Henry BRYAN as their only child's birth certificate had the mother as in the example above (this is 1926). However, after speaking to Florence Bryan's husband he states firmly that Florence Howse and Francis Bryan never married. Though, her grave is inscribed with Florence Bryan.

3. Is there a way of finding out from a death certificate is a person was married, on the Scottish records it states the wife/husbands name. Is there anyway of finding this out for English records?

4. I can't find Frederick Thomas HOWSE (b.1873) in Milton, Oxfordshire on the 1901 Census. He is on the 1891 as Frederick HOWES and the 1881 as Frederick HOWESE. I have managed to find his parents William and Hannah (plus siblings) on the 1901 and his brother Frank but not him. Where are you Fred??? The family were butchers and I believe that Frederick ended up in London. If anyone can help trace him that would be great.

Thanks Julie

Peter Goodey
06-04-2006, 4:23 PM
1. Yes

2. Yes

3. For a woman, under 'Occupation', it should show Wife or Widow of...

4. Perhaps he was away in the war.

Julie Tyrell
06-04-2006, 4:37 PM
Thanks Peter

3. The death certificate is for a man - under occupation it has his address and master butcher. His brother was the informant. I am still not sure this is the right person.

4. If he was away at war is there a way of finding out?

Julie

Peter Goodey
06-04-2006, 5:26 PM
"If he was away at war is there a way of finding out?"

Well, there's a way to try and Geoffers has posted a fair bit of advice in the Boer War forum.

Don't forget the more mundane possibilities -


He's dead (but perhaps you know that he wasn't)
He's on the census but you just haven't found him (and nor can I, incidentally)
He managed to evade the enumerator
He's listed on one of the missing bits of the census

Julie Tyrell
06-04-2006, 6:07 PM
Thanks I will look into the Boer War Forum.

IF this is the Frederick T Howse that I have been trying by every means to track down then he was still alive in 1920. Obviously, I need to prove that it is the right chap, though he didn't die where I expected him too but then nothing surprises me!

I know he had a sister Florence, who was died in 1943 age 57, making her birth around 1886. I have found a family with Florence born 1886 and Frederick T born 1873/4. He had his first child in 1920 age 43!! I wonder if he married before and hoped that the 1901 census may confirm this belief. No such luck yet, I will keep hunting for clues.

Thanks for the advise, Julie

Pam Downes
07-04-2006, 12:01 AM
1. Could a woman take a man's name even though they weren't married and be buried with the man's name? (in the 1920's)Knew I'd seen a similar question recently.
http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12238
As Peter has said, the answer is yes, *but* if they weren't married an English/Welsh death certificate could give both names (i.e. the name she was known by and her true (maiden) name) and both surnames will occur in the GRO Index. Have you got the death certificate?


2. If the woman can take a man's name and she had a child could she put for example Florence Bryan formerly Howse on the birth ceritifcate. For any queries regarding BMD certificates I always refer to
http://www.dixons.clara.co.uk/Certificates/indexbd.htm
It doesn't seem to matter how many times I read it I always seem to find something new in it :)
Pam Downes

Pam Downes
07-04-2006, 12:37 AM
Hi Julie,

RG13/389 folio 29 page 2
47 Bermondsey New Road, Bermondsey
ecclesiastical parish St Mary Magdalene
Fred Thomas HOUSE, head, mar, 25, butcher, Glouc Chipping Norton
Margaret, wife, mar, 20, Newcastle on Tyne

There is also
RG13/379 folio 89 page 3
54 Merrow Street, Newington (London)
ecclesiastical parish St Peter
Thomas HOWES, boarder, s, 32, butcher, Chipping Norton (Oxon)
I am sticking my neck out on the surname because he's indexed as House on Ancestry, but I *think* that it is Howes. But look and judge for yourself.

According to the 'Index of place names' on Genuki. Chipping Norton is in Oxfordshire.
http://www.fhsc.org.uk/genuki/places/c.htm

My search critieria for the census was Fred+variants House and Thomas House, born 1873 +/- 5 years. I have not looked at any other of the results of the search so there may be one or two more butchers hidden away:D
Pam Downes

Pam Downes
07-04-2006, 1:14 AM
The plot thickens again. This time regarding Milton Oxfordshire. Seems there several Miltons. There's Milton, aka Milton under Wychwood, 6 miles SSW of Chipping Norton. A mile further down the road in the same direction there's Upper Milton.
There's plain Milton, 10 miles ENE (slightly west-ish of Adderbury).
To say nothing of Great Milton, Little Milton and Milton Common 24/25 miles SE of Chipping Norton.
Information courtesy of
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/Gazetteer/
Pam Downes

Julie Tyrell
07-04-2006, 9:58 AM
Pam, I think you may have found him!!

My nan's parents were Frederick Thomas and Margaret HOWSE. Further comfirmation will be needed but hopefully this is them.

Re: Milton - From the census it states that he was born Milton. I have now found out that the district Milton comes under is Chipping Norton. Chipping Norton is in the counties of Gloucestershire, Oxfordfordshire and Warickshire, just to make it even more confusing.

Thanks for your hard Pam, it was really appreciated, Julie

Pam Downes
07-04-2006, 2:56 PM
I'll keep my fingers crossed for you Julie. But if so, wasn't it lucky that I used to work with someone who had the HOUSE surname, otherwise I would *never* have connected the two names.
Pam Downes

Julie Tyrell
07-04-2006, 3:31 PM
I know Pam, family names can sure trip us up.

I still don't know if he is 'my chap'.

All I know about Frederick Thomas HOWSE (apart from the fact he was my g.grandfather and married to Margaret Lewis) was that he had a sister Florence. Having managed to hunt down Florence's death in 1943, age 43, I searched the BMD and censuses for a Florence HOWSE born approx 1886 - bingo. Florence HOWSE b 1886 in Stow-on-Wold, Gloucestershire.

Yes, she had an older brother Frederick Thomas, born 1873 in Milton, Oxfordshire. The father and brothers were butchers, but on 1891 Fred is a brickmaker aged 18. Then I lose him, till you found what could be him, all looks promising. He is married to a Margaret, however looking at the BMD a Frederick Thomas HOWSE marrieda Margaret Tennant in 1900, London - wrong surname.

I find by pure accident, looking at the National Archives for something else, the bankruptcy order for Frederick Thomas HOWSE , butcher of Bermondsey (same as the 1901 census). He was made bankrupt twice, 1902 and 1914. I have the death certificate for a Frederick Thomas Howse, in 1924, London, age 51 (B.1875), occupation master butcher. So presumably the same chap.

HOWEVER, my nan, Daisy Freda Mabel Lewis HOWSE was born in 1920 in Ramsgate to Frederick Thomas HOWSE, occupation Resturant housekeeper - mother Margaret HOWSE formerly LEWIS.

In 1921 Frederick T Howse has another child (same address as my nan's birth) a Eric Thomas Lewis HOWSE, occupation butcher journeyman - mother Daisy Elizabeth HOWSE late LEWIS Formerly GIBBONS. In 1922, Eric died Frederick occupation is now Resturant Housekeeper. By 1927 my nan is supposed to be an orphan living with Florence Howse.

1. If the Fred T Howse, the butcher is my nan's father what happen to his 4 children?

2. I can see why my nan had 'Lewis' as a middle name - after her mother, but why did Eric when his mother's maiden name was Gibbons - Lewis was her dead husbands name?

3. Frederick appears in the Kelly's directories for Kent owning a Tea-house (which clarifies the family rumours), in 1919, 1920 and 1923 but disappears after this. Did he start a new business when he butcher's shop went bust? How come he dies in London, but my nan is still in Ramsgate with who, which wife?

So many questions, I feel like i have 4 disjointed bits of the family but can't get them to join up, There is more to this but I won't bore you with it all, just needed London, age 51 (B.1875), occupation master butcher. So presumably the same chap.

HOWEVER, my nan, Daisy Freda Mabel Lewis HOWSE was born in 1920 in Ramsgate to Frederick Thomas HOWSE, occupation Resturant housekeeper - mother Margaret HOWSE formerly LEWIS.

In 1921 Frederick T Howse has another child (same address as my nan's birth) a Eric Thomas Lewis HOWSE, occupation butcher journeyman - mother Daisy Elizabeth HOWSE late LEWIS Formerly GIBBONS. In 1922, Eric died Frederick occupation is now Resturant Housekeeper. By 1927 my nan is supposed to be an orphan living with Florence Howse.

1. If the Fred T Howse, the butcher is my nan's father what happen to his 4 children?

2. I can see why my nan had 'Lewis' as a middle name - after her mother, but why did Eric when his mother's maiden name was Gibbons - Lewis was her dead husbands name?

3. Frederick appears in the Kelly's directories for Kent owning a Tea-house (which clarifies the family rumours), in 1919, 1920 and 1923 but disappears after this. Did he start a new business when he butcher's shop went bust? How come he dies in London, but my nan is still in Ramsgate with who, which wife?

So many questions, I feel like i have 4 disjointed bits of the family but can't get them to join up, There is more to this but I won't bore you with it all, just needed to get it off my chest.
Sorry and thanks Julie