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stgiles_noke
27-10-2004, 8:29 PM
Dear Listers,

I posted this puzzle a couple of days ago with a link to a website showing the actual certificates in question. However, so many people have accessed it that the bandwidth has been exceeded and for most of the time this website link is inaccessible. So to Plan B - have just provided a transcription.

THE PUZZLE

Seeking the marriage of my ancestor William George Manley to Julia Murphy, @ St. Matthew's, Newington, London in 1872, the certificate shows William's father as George Armener, engine driver. Looking through the GRO Index I found another reference to a George Armener who was also married in St. Matthews, Newington eight months earlier, also to a Julia Murphy.

The marriages are as follows:

Sept 3 1871 George Armener, 21, bachelor, engine driver, King’s Place Borough, Thomas Armener, engine driver
Julia Murphy, 20, spinster, - , Albert Place, Newington, Daniel Murphy, jeweller
Witnesses: Frederick Bridges and Eliza Gibbens

May 5 1872 William Manley, 23, bachelor, engine driver, 22 Richmond Street, George Armener, engine driver
Julia Murphy, 21, spinster, -, 22 Richmond Street, Daniel Murphy, jewellerP style="MARGIN: 0px">
Seeking the marriage of my ancestor William George Manley to Julia Murphy, @ St. Matthew's, Newington, London in 1872, the certificate shows William's father as George Armener, engine driver. Looking through the GRO Index I found another reference to a George Armener who was also married in St. Matthews, Newington eight months earlier, also to a Julia Murphy.

There are several striking similarities: the occupation of engine driver of both George Armeners; the name of both Julias’ fathers and his occupation; Julia’s address; marriage in the same church etc.

But there are also obvious discrepancies. I’m confident that I have found the correct George Armener who married in 1871 on the census taken a few months earlier: the address is (almost) correct - 15 Kings Court, Southwark, his age is right (20), but his occupation is given as printer on the census, not engine driver. Similarly, William Manley was a fishmonger, although the marriage certificate states his occupation also as engine driver. I realise that occupations often changed radically from one census to the other, but it’s just the similarity engine driver/jeweller on both certificates which raises questions in my mind.

I’d be very grateful for any advice on unravelling this puzzle - is it just coincidence, or am I missing something blindingly obvious?

Yours baffled (but still hopeful),
Anne Johnson

Ron Lankshear
04-11-2004, 4:19 AM
Seriously looks like something wrong with the certificates somewhere or other

I thought perhaps some resolution in 1881 census but nothing really
George Armener I cannot see in fact very few folk with that surname

And William Manley quite a lot but of that age near London and I also looked for a Julia Manley which gives this two records
I guess you are going for the second one the fishmonger

So is it possible the Church messed this up - did they have the marriage in their day book and not in the marriage register - could they have transferred the data and jumbled it

Perhaps try to find these folk in 1871 census - should help to clear up age and trade etc (sorry don't have access otherwise I would look....)

William MANLEY Head M Male 38 Manchester, Lancashire, England Railway Steam Shed Foreman
Julia A. MANLEY Wife M Female 21 Hanging Houghton, Northampton, England
Francis M. MANLEY Son Male 3 Wolverhampton, Stafford, England
Betsey MANLEY Mother W Female 68 Middleton, Warwick, England
Lower Swinford
Census Place Upperswinford, Worcester, England
Family History Library Film 1341692
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 2888 / 45
Page Number 20

William G. MANLEY Head M Male 31 Kent, England Fishmonger
Julia MANLEY Wife M Female 30 Kent, England
Lillian G. MANLEY Daur Female 8 Kent, England
William G. MANLEY Son Male 6 Kent, England
Murian A. MANLEY Daur Female 2 Kent, England
Walter C. MANLEY Son Male 11 m Kent, England

Geoffers
04-11-2004, 7:52 AM
Seeking the marriage of my ancestor William George Manley to Julia Murphy, @ St. Matthew's, Newington, London in 1872, the certificate shows William's father as George Armener, engine driver.
The marriages are as follows:
Sept 3 1871 George Armener, 21, bachelor, engine driver, King’s Place Borough, Thomas Armener, engine driver
Julia Murphy, 20, spinster,
May 5 1872 William Manley, 23, bachelor, engine driver, 22 Richmond Street, George Armener, engine driver]
If the marriage(s) took place in a church (were they after banns or by licence?) and your copies are from the GRO, then I'd suggest you check the original parish banns and marriage register - first to confirm the information given and second to see if there is any note added to the effect that the first marriage was invalidated for any reason.

Geoffers
Charlbury, Oxfordshire

Guy Etchells
04-11-2004, 10:15 AM
I would hazard a guess that the certificates you obtained were from Southport rather than copies of the original certificates from St. Matthew's, Newington.

If this is the case the try to obtain sight of the originals from the church it looks very much as if the vicar has become confused when transcribing his quarterly return and inserted the wrong details.
Check the signatures on the certificates, if they all looks the same they are probably transcripts and possibly inaccurate, if each signature is in a different hand they will be copies of the original.
Cheers
Guy

stgiles_noke
04-11-2004, 7:17 PM
Thanks for your thoughts. The certificates are, as you surnmised, from Southport. It looks as if the best course of action is to obtain the original parish register entries and see what turns up, check the signatures etc. It's very curious that the William Manley from Warwickshire than Ron found was also connected with the railway - curiouser and curiouser. I'm determined to get to the bottom of this puzzle.
Thanks again for your help,
Best wishes,
Anne Johnson

Guy Etchells
04-11-2004, 7:41 PM
One small point an engine driver does not necassrily mean a connection with the railways, there were many engine drivers tending engines in factories and mills in those days.
message=One small point an engine driver does not necassrily mean a connection with the railways, there were many engine drivers tending engines in factories and mills in those days.
The engine could be for lifting cages in the pits, blowing air, turning pullies or even pumping water.
Other names for engine drivers include engine tenter, engine attendant, engineer, engine man etc. etc.
Cheers
Guy