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Sheleen
03-12-2005, 2:35 AM
This brick wall is really frustrating.... How much information does a person need before its enough to trace an ancestor???
Here's what I mean...

John Smale was born in 1866 and married Mary Burridge in 1892. He passed away in 1896, and Mary went on to marry Frances Veal. Mary and John had one son....William John Smale, who called himself John most of the time, except for families and friends, to whom all knew him as Jack (confusing, huh.... this took me over a year to figure out....lol)
Johns' (b.1866) father was named William. He married Mary Ann Hopkins on the 9th October, 1859.
I don't know when William (snr) nor Mary Ann Hopkins were born.

All this info was found and logged... then I moved and lost a lot of my notes, so I don't even now where I found the info I have- unless its from certificates I hold. I do not have a marriage cert for John and Mary Ann. I do know for definate that all this side of the family lived in Devon. Mary Burridge, for instance lived in Ivybridge.

Still, you'd think that with this much information, I'd find them somewhere - on the census or in a reference site..... but there is nothing. Specifically, I'm trying to find William (snr) and mary Ann Hopkins.

Buying the marriage certificate MAY help... but before I do that, can anyone suggest anything I can do to trace these people?

Trish
03-12-2005, 3:57 PM
Well, unfortunately, judging by the number of SMALEs in the censuses, the name was a fairly common one in Devon in the 19th century.

Do you recall occupations of any of your SMALEs? Were William and Mary born in Devon?

If William and Mary Ann married in 1859, then they should appear in the 1861 census with either no children or a very young child/children.

There are the following entries for 1861:

1 Holland Rd, East Teignmouth, Devon [RG9/1400 Folio 150 Page 24]
William SMALE Head Mar 26 Printer Barnstaple Devon
Mary A SMALE Wife Do 24 Ashford Kent
Elizabeth A SMALE Daur 7 mo Teignmouth Devon

Tinney, Lifton, Devon [RG9/1464 Folio 35 Page 2]
William SMALE Head Mar 30 Farm Labourer born Devon Kelly
Mary Do Wife Mar 31 Devon Marystow
Emma Do Daur Un 8 mo Devon Lifton

Winnacott ?Ham?, North Petherwin, Devon [RG9/1518 Folio 22 Page 3]
William SMALE Head Mar 34 Agricultural Labourer born Cornwall Week St. Mary
Mary Do Wife Mar 25 Cornwall North Samerton
Mary Jane Do Daur 1 Devon North Petherwin

7 East St ?QueensAnn? [RG9/1412 Folio 65 Page 2]
William SMALE Head Mar 33 Road Lab born Devon Newton Poppleford
Mary A SMALE Wife Mar 25 Rd Lab's Wife Devon ?Buclend Banalurn?
Emma S SMALE Daughter 2 Scholar [sic] Devon Plympton St. Mary
William S SMALE Son 6 mo Forre Devon

Does anything look familiar to you in any of these entries?

Trish

Trish
03-12-2005, 4:12 PM
I think you can safely rule out the 2nd entry I gave you: In 1871, William and Mary have [in addition to Emma] 4 other children, however, none are named John or Jack. [The child born in 1866 is a daughter named Rosina.]

Trish

Sheleen
03-12-2005, 6:02 PM
William (snr) - married to Mary Ann Hopins - was a printer, according to some notes I have - though his son worked on the railway, and certainy worked in or near Ivybridge.
William and Mary were wed on the 9th October, 1859 in Barnstaple, Devon.

Thanks for taking the time and effort to look up those names for me....
Looks like there's a definate match in the very first one. I wasn't aware that John had any brothers and sisters... looks like I've got a lot more digging to do.
The most frustrating thing about all this, is that I come from a family of hoarders.... I can guarantee that someone has all this noted down already... I wish they'd have a quick look through their attics when they get the Christmas decorations down :)

Thank you again... it is VERY much appreciated :)

Trish
04-12-2005, 2:01 AM
You're most welcome. There's nothing like starting from the beginning, is there? Hope your family comes through for you.

The following 1881 entry looks like the same SMALE family as that 1st entry I gave you:

Azes Lane, Barnstaple, Devon [RG11/2244 Folio 72 Page 4]

Mary Anne SMALE Head Widow 43 Housekeeper [born] Devon [sic] Ashford
Elizabeth Anne do daur Unm 20 Servant do Teignmouth
Alfred John SMALE Son Unm 15 Saddler Devon Barnstaple
Alice SMALE daur 13 Scholar do do
William SMALE Son 6 do do do
Thomas SMALE Son 4 do do do
Fredericke WEDLAKE Lodger Unm 22 Groom do do

So your William John [Jack] SMALE could be the Alfred John SMALE in this entry -- with even more siblings? H'mm...

Trish

AnnB
04-12-2005, 11:16 AM
Well, unfortunately, judging by the number of SMALEs in the censuses, the name was a fairly common one in Devon in the 19th century.

There are the following entries for 1861:

1 Holland Rd, East Teignmouth, Devon [RG9/1400 Folio 150 Page 24]
William SMALE Head Mar 26 Printer Barnstaple Devon
Mary A SMALE Wife Do 24 Ashford Kent
Elizabeth A SMALE Daur 7 mo Teignmouth Devon
Trish
I thought it might be worth mentioning, that the next parish to Barnstaple is Ashford, so I suspect that it where Mary came from. I have come across several instances where someone has 'added' a county to a parish on the census return, and come up with the wrong county (and I don't mean that Trish has added the wrong county - it would have been added to the original schedule) ;)

Best wishes
Ann

Trish
04-12-2005, 10:04 PM
I thought it might be worth mentioning, that the next parish to Barnstaple is Ashford, so I suspect that it where Mary came from. I have come across several instances where someone has 'added' a county to a parish on the census return, and come up with the wrong county (and I don't mean that Trish has added the wrong county - it would have been added to the original schedule) ;)

Best wishes
AnnAnn, I'm glad you picked up on the discrepancy. The enumerator for the 1861 entry had clearly written "Ashford Kent". The enumerator for the 1871 entry had "Devon Ashford" so I typed "sic" after "Devon" to make it clear that this was an exact transcript of what had been written. It certainly helps to know that Ashford is the parish next to Barnstaple.

Thanks,
Trish

AnnB
05-12-2005, 8:22 AM
Ann, I'm glad you picked up on the discrepancy. The enumerator for the 1861 entry had clearly written "Ashford Kent". The enumerator for the 1871 entry had "Devon Ashford" so I typed "sic" after "Devon" to make it clear that this was an exact transcript of what had been written. It certainly helps to know that Ashford is the parish next to Barnstaple.

Thanks,
Trish
Hello Trish

Yes, I saw the 'sic' and that's why I thought Sheleen might like it clarified. I should have said Ashford was one of the adjoining parishes - it's not the only one! ;)

Sheleen - I wonder if this is Mary Ann (nee Hopkins) family from the LDS 3 counties 1851 census CD

Courtices
Ashford Barnstaple, Devonshire
PRO Reference: HO/107/1893 Folio:404 Page: 5
FHL Film: 0221044

William HOPKINS - Head - M - 52 - M - Blacksmith - Woolfardis Worthy-DEV
Elizabeth HOPKINS - Wife - M - 42 - F - Heanton Punchardon-DEV
John HOPKINS - Son - U - 20 - M - Heanton Punchardon-DEV
William HOPKINS - Son - U - 18 - M - Ashford-DEV
Mary A. HOPKINS - Daur - U - 14 - F - Scholar - Ashfordd-DEV
James HOPKINS - Son - U - 12 - M - Scholar - Ashford-DEV
Caroline HOPKINS - Daur - U - 10 - F - Scholar - Ashford-DEV
Elizabeth HOPKINS - Daur - U - 7 - F - Scholar - Ashford-DEV
Philip HOPKINS - Son - U - 4 - M - Ashford-DEV
Samuel HOPKINS - Son - U - 1 - M - Ashford-DEV

Best wishes
Ann