Results 1 to 10 of 10
  1. #1

    Default Bandsman on "Ganges"

    My ancestor Alphons Eder appears on the 1861 census on board the Ganges "at sea" occupation Bandsman. Cant find any reference to Bandsmen in the Royal Navy at that time, so must I assume he was in the marines ? the Ganges was the flagship of the Pacific fleet at the time so presumably there would have been Marines on board.

    Any ideas ?

    Cheers..Ed

  2. #2
    Geoffers
    Guest

    Default

    He isn't included in the RN register of seamen's services which can be searched online at:
    https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/d...vy-service.asp
    This includes those who joined after 1853

    TNA's catalague has the Rating's services from ADM29 indexed
    https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp
    These cover services up to the mid-1850's.

    If he was in the RN, I would have expected him to appear in one, or the other; though I haven't serarched under any variant spellings.

    If he was in the Marines, the service records are held at TNA in ADM157

    Geoffers

  3. #3
    Ken Boyce
    Guest

    Default

    Hi Ed
    I think you will find that since c1750 the Royal Marines provided the musicans for all of the UK Royal Navy. The Royal Marines School of Music was formed at that time and young boys were taken in and trained as musicians for service in RN establishments and ships around the world

    Regards

  4. #4

    Default Bandsmen on the Ganges

    Geoffers and Ken

    Thanks for those repliess. It would seem that he must have been in the Marines then, so will have to persue that. Although presumably there would be little hope of his service record surviving. Bit strange all this really as he was born in Slovenia and was still at home in Laibach (Ljubljiana) until 1854. He married in 1861 in London and it had never occured to me that he may have been in the British Army.

    Cheers..Ed

  5. #5
    Geoffers
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed McKie
    Thanks for those repliess. It would seem that he must have been in the Marines then, so will have to persue that. Although presumably there would be little hope of his service record surviving.
    Oh no, the service record should survive, just a case of finding it.
    The attestation papers for the RM are in ADM157 at Kew (but they are filed by date of discharge)
    Description books in AMD158
    Registers of Service in ADM159

    If he was on Ganges in 1861, he should be in the muster books. For Ganges, Jan-Mar 1861 look in ADM38/3533 and for April-May 1861 look in ADM38/3534

    The ships' log for the period is in ADM53/6764

    Geoffers

  6. #6
    Ken Boyce
    Guest

    Default

    Hi Ed
    The situation regarding Ganges and Naval musicians is a little Complex

    The name HMS Ganges has had a checkered history - part seagoing vessel and part vessel and shore establishement as a training depot for the RN (the RMs had their own training depots)

    There is a Web Site for Ganges

    19C Navy musicians were oddball - there were the RMs - but there were also bands formed and paid for by Naval Officers for mess duties These bands contained enlisted and unenlisted personnel.

    At one time there was a Navy School of Music c1900 ordered by the Amiralty to cleanup the situation with these RN (unofficial) Bands which were starting to undertake duties other than mess duties. I believe that at one point the RMSM was placed under the jurisdicction of the NSM

    The RM and Navy Music Schools were amalgamated under the RMs c1930(?)

    I vaguely recall that there was something unique about foreign boys being admitted to the RMSM

    If he enlisted as an untrained boy musician he most likely was a Marine but keep an open mind as to Navy vs RM enlistment

    From one who came very close to becoming a 15yr old RM Bandsman but was finally rejected because of colour blindness

    Regards

  7. #7

    Default Bandsmen on the Ganges

    Thanks for all that Geoffers, however a visit to Kew is rather out of the question at the moment :-) and the last time I paid for service records it cost me 60 pounds and I am reluctant to risk that sort of money again. You will see from Kens contribution that it is quite possible that he was not a serviceman anyway. Ken Alphons was at least 17 by the time he left home so still of an age to be a boy musician I suppose, but he was out of the service by 1862, so could he have had such a short service. Perhaps you are right and that he was a civilian musician. The census listings are no help either, they dont seem to be in any sort of order, ratings and officers all mixed up and not even in alphabetical order. As for colour blindness I thought music was in black and white !!

    Cheers..Ed

  8. #8
    Ken Boyce
    Guest

    Default

    Hi Ed
    I note that in 1861 Ganges was a sea going vessel and I doubt that he would have been a civil employee on a ship of the line.

    RM musicians were assigned to gunnery duties in battle except for drummers and buglers who were used to signal battle commands

    Is it possible that LDS has copied the records for access through your closest FHL

    Regards

  9. #9

    Default Bandsmen on the Ganges

    [Quote

    Is it possible that LDS has copied the records for access through your closest FHL

    Regards[/QUOTE]

    yes the LDS have quite a lot of Army records on film and have had several out in the past including one for Alphons's son Edward. I think I would have noticed his father there when going through, however will look at the index again and see, its very little money to get the film again anyway, so worth another look if the period is right.

    Thanks fir the suggestion.

    Cheers..Ed

  10. #10

    Default Bandsmen on HMS Ganges

    Have gone back to this now and employed a researcher, and also had another look at the 1861 census

    It appears that my gt grandfather, Alphons Eder joined the Ganges on 19 Sep 1857, the day before she left Chatham as flagship of the Pacific Squadron and was discharged to shore when the ship returned on 15 May 1861.

    he is listed in the description books with birth information as we know it. However there is no sign that he was an enlisted man.

    The 1861 census shows nine bandsmen and one musician on board. Only four of the bandsmen appear on the TNA registers, so presumably it was a mixed band of enlisted and unelisted men. The band was also of mixed origins 4 English, 1 Cornish 3 Germans and Alphons who say he was Austrian but was born in Slovenia.

    Now then all you pundits !!! what did the band do ? what sort of music did they play, it cant have been all hornpipes and the like, can it ?
    how can I find out ?

    cheers..Ed

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Select a file: