HMS Victory II & HMS Firequeen

[bruros]

=Bart592;41208
Hi

Been trying to find out about HMS Fire Queen my Grandfather was on this ship 19th Nov 1904 to 31st March 1905 taken from his service record.

Maybe training ship in Portsmouth.

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My Grand-dad was also on HMS"Fire Queen from 26 Feb 1905 to 2 March 05.( Engine Room Artificer 4th Cl) Then HMS Excellent for one month, and on 4 April 06 went to HMS "Victory 2" from the 5th April when he was promoted to ERA 3rd Cl., leaving her on 19 July 06. I'll look forward to exchanging Notes, if you'd care to ring my Bell at :- [email protected] ; ! Cheers and Compliments of the Season , Bruce Graham

[charlie4605]

I have just started researching my grand father's Royal Navy service. He served on Victory II as early as Jan 1896 and in the early 1900's, first as a stoker and then a mechanic. he was also on Firequeen in 1904 and various others which I have yet to research. Thanks for all the information I have found in the forum. If anyone has any further information I would be pleased to hear.
charlie4605 researching Charlton

[bruros]

Gidday Charlie ! Good to see your Post. Since my first effort, I have discovered a few facts more than I knew B 4 !
Both HMS "Victory 2 " and "Firequeen " were Training Establishments. I used to wonder just why, on my Grand-dad's WW1 Service Record, it showed such lengthy periods of time in Training Establishments.
Howevr when I got to think about it more, I realised several things:-1) The year Grand-dad Edgar signed up, 1903 in fact, we are talking about an Era when many of the Crews at Sea would have served under Sail alone. The combination vessels (Sail assisted by Steam" were still around, but being replaced by Power Driven Vessels. So The Navy had to fully train up hundreds , if not thousands of men for Active Service.
Havinmg been a "Maritime Studies Tutor" for almost 20 years, I realise what the Trainers were facing ! E.R.A.'s like Edgar, who was a trained Engine Fitter, had to be taught almost EVERYTHING ! :- Ship Stability; Fire Fighting; Fitting and Turning; Blacksmithing,Boiler making; Shipwrighting, not to mention how to maintain Safety in Ships' Engine Rooms and Boiler rooms and most of all , how to operate any Machinery , above or below Decks, including Derricks, Cranes and Winches ; Windlass's and Capstans. THEN they had to be made familiar with the Ship's Weaponry ! !
So Edgar did 5 days training on HMS "Fire Queen", followed by 396 days on HMS "Excellent", then 107 days on HMS"Victory 2"
Before F-Queen , he had served on HMS Duke of Wellington and HMS Hanibal , for a total of 506 days. Both were Fighting ships.
By the end of his Training (F-Queen, Excellent and Victory 2) he had risen from Assistant ERA to ERA 3rd Class.After that lot he was ERA 3rd Class on HMS "Hecla" for another 906 days ....that was only a 3rd of his Service, and about half his Period in Training !
The next mystery I'm trying to unravel is :- From 1/04/1918, he was on HMS"Vernon" (TB109) until 31/03/18. Then HMS"Victory X"(TB109) from 01/04/18 until 25/02/1919. All I can find out so far, is they were both Shore Training Establishments, and that a "TB109" was a Torpedo Boat around 106 feet long. Also in WW2, the TB's would go out into The Channel, a'hunting Germam E-Boats, and I am wondering if that happened in WW1 as well....does anyone know ? T-T-F-N, and Best for 2015, Bruce Graham!

[charlie4605]

Hi Bruce. Thanks for such detailed info. One thing I don't understand is how do you find out which vessels were real ships and which were training establishments? My Grandad served on Victory 2, Royal Oak, Polyphemus, Charyldis, Furious, Pembroke, Droftwell, Vernon, Caesar, Orion, Firequeen 2 etc, etc...................I could go on and on!! Does the website www.pbenyon.plus.com just list real ships and is there a separate list of training establishments? Best wishes, Charlie.

[bruros]

Hi Charlie,
Thanks a bunch for your comments , in response to mine.
When I started this " Grand-dad's History" thing, I knew very little about what there is " out there" about Naval and Merchant Ships.
I had looked up all the Merchant Ships I had served upon, plus HMS"Hood" , since the youngest son of Grand-dad Edgar's sons....Donald Graham ( a.k.a. Uncle Jock) , was a Supply Assistant on that ship , when she was sunk with ( almost) All Hands in 1941.
With Edgar's WW1 and WW2 Service record, all I did was , taking each Vessel, one at a time , type on the Google Searchline , for example , his first Berth on:- HMS"Duke of Wellington" in 1903.....that was the year Edgar started with The Navy, and from the length of Service, 86 days, the D of W being a Shore Base
( Cement Frigate ! ! )I deduced this might have been called " Basic Training", which EVERYONE should have before they set foot on their first Sea going ship.
Funny , when you think back ! I can remember being on the deck of a heavily rolling and pitching ship in the Bay of Biscay, outward bound for West Africa. I was a 2nd or 3rd Trip Cadet at the time, and placed in charge of two other Cadets ( known as "Middies") and two first trip Deck Boys. The job , chosen for it's " Cushy number" , well away from the Fore Deck, where the Bosun was in charge of "MEN !" was up on the Boatdeck securing a couple of heavy crates which had worked their way loose. I was 18 , the other guys were 16 and 17, and not one of them had ever seen a ship before ! It was a wonder we didn't lose the lot of them overboard , puir wee Souls !
Good luck with the Googling ! Cheers Bruce G.

[charlie4605]

Hi Bruce,
Thanks for your help.............I'm on the case.
Best wishes,
Charlie

[paulhorne]

Small world ... my grandfather served on the Nelson in 1904, Firequeen in Jan 1905, the Drake 1905 and the Victory II in 1906 and was invalided out when he lost his leg, then a stoker, on the Victory II. I got to here looking for the same information as everyone else and chances are some of these men
would have known each other.
Navy discharge:
He injured his leg when a large peice of coal fell on it; this was somewhere near Gibralter (reference to it in the naval record); gangrene then set in and he ended up in hospital in Portsmouth (which is where it may have been amputated).
So if Victory II was a training establishment would it have been out at sea in Gibralter at that time?

[LOVAT#]

So if Victory II was a training establishment would it have been out at sea in Gibralter at that time?

The answer is no - HMS VICTORY II was a shore accounting base. This confuses a lot of people not familiar with Naval records. Usually, on the records, the shore accounting base is shown and the sea-going ship may be shown in brackets next to the accounting base.

Regards
Hugh

[charlie4605]

The answer is no - HMS VICTORY II was a shore accounting base. This confuses a lot of people not familiar with Naval records. Usually, on the records, the shore accounting base is shown and the sea-going ship may be shown in brackets next to the accounting base.

Regards
Hugh

I am new to this and struggling to understand the jargon. I am also looking at Victory II as my grandfather served on it from Jan 1896 to March 1899 and again in 1905. 1912 and 1919. I have obtained a book "Shore Establishments of the Royal Navy" by Lt. Cdr. B Warlow RN, which describes Victory II as follows, (I have quoted exactly as the entries in the book):-
VICTORY II Crystal Palace/Sydenham. Training Depot for RN. Division 1915 Called HMS CRYSTAL PALACE.
VICTORY II Newbury/Portsmouth. Accounting Section. To Goodings, Newbury 04.09.1940, at Portsmouth (Commercial Chambers) late 1945.
I assume this means that VICTORY II was a training depot up to 1915 after which it was called HMS CRYSTAL PALACE. It was transferred to Goodings, Newbury in 1940 becoming an accounting base until 1945 when it was transferred to Portsmouth.

Can you tell me if I am interpreting this correctly? Was VICTORY II an actual ship or a shore establishment. It all seems very confusing. My grandfather's service record shows him serving on a number of shore establishments between 1896 and 1918 and I would like to understand more about what these were.
charlie4605

[peter nicholl]

The wording of the various rules and regulations, including discipline, meant that they applied only to ships and boats of the RN. Shore Establishments took their names from actual vessels. Some were general purpose, while others e.g. HMS Vernon (torpedoes) were training establishments. Also, HMS Heron (RNAS Yeovilton). To answer your question HMS Victory II was a Shore Establishment which took its name from the vessel HMS Victory. Shore Establishments were often referred to as Stone Frigates.
Peter
PS The first paragraph of the Author's Preface to "Shore Establishments of the Royal Navy" has a quite useful explanation on the subject.