John BRYAN, Purser early 19th century

[Biggalbart]

Hello, I have a challenging ancestor named John Bryan. I've confirmed a marriage under licence to Anna LANGDON on 5 October 1810 in the Parish of St John, Hackney, London, at which time he was described as a Purser. I've also located - under the heading "1798-1843 Naval General Service Medals - Known Survivors" what I believe to be 3 service medals. These seem to be Clasps noted as: Martinique: 2-10th Feb 1809; Guadaloupe: Jan-Feb 1810; Eurotas: 25th Feb. 1814. The vessels identified are: Eurydice, Alcemene, Eurotas. My interpretation of the notation is that they may be held in National Maritime Museum - Portsmouth UK. I also have (from the National Archives) his record of service on The Magnificient, in 3 stints between 6 July 1830 and 1841.

I have located a newspaper report concerning charges brought against a person named John Bryan, master of a ship called the John Renwick. This clipping concerns a court action that appears to have taken place on 14 November 1839 (the report I located is in the Sydney Morning Herald dated 27 March 1840 on the Trove site). He was charged with "unlawfully detaining a quantity of ship stores". The report does not identify the name of the court, but it's definitely in England. I suspect this John Bryan could be my ancestor, but there seems to be overlap with the NA record of his service aboard The Magnificent.

The problem I have with him is twofold - I don't know where he came from or where he went. I would appreciate any advice, guidance or suggestion as to where I could search to confirm his fate.

Thank you.

[EileenT]

After a quick look on ancestry I spotted a John Bryan in the 1871 census. He is shown to be 96 years of age, Uncle to the householder and a widower, naval pensioner. Sounds possible?
His birth would have been around 1775, in Lydford, Somerset.
The census is,
Civil Parish: Charlton Adam
County/Island: Somerset
Country: England
Registration district: Langport
Sub-registration district: Somerton
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Household schedule number: 100
Piece: 2393
Folio: 34
Page Number: 18

The family he is living with is named Francis.
Hope this helps,
Eileen

[Biggalbart]

Thank you Eileen. I'll keep this record in mind. The problem I have is that I'm guessing so much - even his dob. I had estimated about 1780-85, but that's a total guesstimate.

Chris

[EileenT]

Again, John Bryan is living with the same family in 1861 census where he is described as a Greenwich Pensioner.
I have no idea what that means?
He is in Babcary District 8 Somerset.
Registration district: Langport
Sub-registration district: Somerton
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Household schedule number: 79
Piece: 1628
Folio: 113
Page Number: 15

I have just googled Greenwich Pensioner. Interesting. Wikipedia calls it the Naval equivalent of a Chelsea Pensioner.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwich_pensioner

[Allan F Sparrow]

I have located a newspaper report concerning charges brought against a person named John Bryan, master of a ship called the John Renwick. This clipping concerns a court action that appears to have taken place on 14 November 1839 (the report I located is in the Sydney Morning Herald dated 27 March 1840 on the Trove site). He was charged with "unlawfully detaining a quantity of ship stores". The report does not identify the name of the court, but it's definitely in England.

I believe that it was the case that the Master of a small vessel could also be the Purser, and therefore able to misappropriate stores. (The notorious Bligh of the Bounty was purser for his ship on the ill-fated bread-fruit expedition, I think.)

[EileenT]

Hi again Chris,
You may already have this.
From the UK, Naval Officer and Rating Service Records, 1802-1919 forJohn Bryan,
Entry Book of Certificates, Piece 037; Admiralty; Ratings, 1846 May - 1847 Jan
It shows the following details ,
Name: John Bryan
Birth Date: abt 1782
Gender: Male
Age at Start of Service: 21
First Service Date: 10 Jul 1803
And lists his service dates on the Northumberland, Pert, Melville, Eurydice, Alemene, Romulus, Eurotas and Salisbury.
It also shows his progress from A.B. to Purser.
I thought it may be able to help you pin down his age.

Eileen

[Biggalbart]

Eileen - thank you soooo much. This is new information for me. It's the first breakthrough I've had for a very long time.

Chris.

[Megan Roberts]

I have a naval purser in my family tree. Mine was in the late 1770s, and I have done quite a lot of research into him.

He was born in the mid 1720s, and entered the customs service and was the Captain of a Cutter chasing pirates and other undesirables until he retired in the mid 1770s. He then became the purser aboard HMS Superbe, and I was curious why he moved from being a Captain to being a "mere" purser.

What I discovered was that the naval purser's role was that of the person on a ship responsible for the handling of money on board. The purser existed as a naval rank (warrant officer) until 1852. The development the warrant officer system began in 1040 when 5 English ports began furnishing warships to King Edward the Confessor in exchange for certain privileges, and they also furnished crews. Later these officers were "warranted" by the Admiralty. Pursers received no pay but were entitled to profits made through their business activities. In the 18th century a purser would buy his warrant for £65 and was required to post sureties of £2,100 with the Admiralty. They would usually charge the supplier a 5% commission for making a purchase and it is recorded that they charged a considerable mark-up when they on-sold goods to the crew. The purser bought everything (except food and drink) on credit acting almost as a private merchant. In addition to his official responsibilities it was customary for the purser to act as a literal private merchant for luxuries such as tobacco and to be the crew's banker. As a result the purser could be at risk of losing money and being thrown into debtor's prison. The position, though unpaid, was very sought after due to the expectation of making a reasonable profit.

For a long time I did not know what happened to him after this, until FamilySearch put on line "India, Deaths and Burials, 1719-1948", and discovered that he was buried in Madras in April 1780.

I also found that he was mentioned in the 1784 Old Bailey trial of a William Robertson, who had been his agent in London and managed his accounts (as purser). Robertson was charged that he had forged a receipt for the delivery of provisions to the garrison at Goree (Senegal) from HMS Superbe in 1779, and that in some way the purser was involved. The purser's executors gave evidence that his estate was worth much less than expected and that there was virtually nothing in it. Robertson was acquitted.

Hopefully this puts your man's role as purser into context.

[Allan F Sparrow]

Thanks Megan, that was very interesting, though it only confirmed the impression I had formed when I was a history teacher, and also an avid reader of naval fiction, especially C.S Forester's Hornblower novels!

[Biggalbart]

Hi Megan. Thank you for your very informative response. Yes, the role of ship's Purser was potentially a very lucrative position, provided all went well. When I was England I wandered into a library (while waiting for my laundry) and stumbled upon a gentleman who was quite an authority on British naval history. In addition to explaining the system if distributing the spoils from captured pirate ships etc, he told me that a Purser might also cheat on rations & fudge the quantity of some items provided to the crew so as to increase his profit. This type of behaviour obviously would not have endeared the Purser to the crew.
Chris