Help! Catherine Guthrie Watson born abt 1871.

[Pam Downes]

Why? You are doing great on it!

Jx

Flattery won't get you anywhere.

Pam

[MichelePhillips]

Hi Pam,
I just looked at Sarah Watson’s marriage record on Ancestry.
Name: Sarah Watson (Sarah Young)
Father: Alexander Young
Spouse: John Thomas Guthrie
Father: Ralph Guthrie
Looks like Sarah might have been a widow.
Was also wondering if Catherine could have gone to live with her half-brother’s family (John George Guthrie born about 1858).
He was 13 or so years older than her, so it’s possible he took her in.
I found the following in the 1891 census records.
Class RG12, Piece 638, folio 149,
George Guthrie, master of the SS Harriett docked at Beadles Wharf Erith, Kent, born Blyth, Northumberland abt 1857.
It would fit in with the photo of the ship’s captain she kept by her bed.
All we need to do is find who he married and we might find Catherine living there while John George was at sea.
In the meantime I’ll send off for the marriage and death certificates like you suggested.
Michele

[MichelePhillips]

Sarah Young, baptised 24 May 1836, All Saints, Newcastle Upon Tyne.
Father Alexander Young, mother Mary Ann.

Sarah Young, age 19, birth date 1836, father Alexander Young, married George Watson, age 23, born 1832, father William Watson, All Saints Newcastle upon Tyne, 27 June 1855.
Three children possibly from this marriage: William Alexander bapt 1856, Mary Jane bapt 1859, Alexander born 1860, bapt 1863. All baptised at All Saints, Newcastle.

[geneius]

Sorry Michele

Flattery won't get you anywhere.

Might get me a few Brownie points
Jx

[MichelePhillips]

Sorry for what? Nothing wrong with a bit of points gathering.
Just found this: John George Guthrie married Jane Henry in 1885, Thornaby on Tees, Yorkshire.
In 1891 they had a daughter, Jane Gwendoline Guthrie.
In 1896, Catherine had a daughter she named Jane Gwendoline Farrow.
John George’s wife died and he married Ada Margaret Alderson in 1898.
Can’t find them in the 1901 census but they’re there in 1911 – John George Guthrie, Master Mariner, born Blyth on Tyne.
Still can’t find any trace of Catherine in the 1881 or 1891 censuses though.
I’m beginning to think she was living in t’ shoebox in t’ middle o’ road.
Going to have to stop now.
I’ve sat here so long I’ve gone numb.
Plus there’s a massive thunderstorm going on outside. Don’t want to get blown up.
Thanks again,
Michele

[MichelePhillips]

Well, I didn't stop.
Sarah Watson was widowed by the time of the 1871 census and she and her 5 children were living with her widowed mother, Mary Ann Young.
Sarah Watson can be found in every census up until 1911, when she was 75 and living with her youngest son Thomas.
So it seems likely that John Thomas Guthrie did die in 1876 and Sarah reverted to her original married name.
Also looks like she abandoned Catherine. I wonder if Catherine knew her mother was still alive.

[Pam Downes]

Sorry for what? Nothing wrong with a bit of points gathering.
Just found this: John George Guthrie married Jane Henry in 1885, Thornaby on Tees, Yorkshire.

If I say I found that marriage too, I mean I saw it, but didn't want it to be right as a marriage to Sarah Tweddell (the other bride on the same GRO Index page) fitted a John Guthrie I found in the 1891 much better.
This John, married to a Sarah, is aged 32, born Newcastle on Tyne and a fish curer. Which fitted very nicely with the 'most likely' John Guthrie I found in the 1881 census as he was a fish merchant.
But then the 'evidence' on Familysearch of a John George Guthrie marrying a Jane Henry on 19 September 1885 meant that my little 'theory' didn't fit.

In 1891 they had a daughter, Jane Gwendoline Guthrie.
In 1896, Catherine had a daughter she named Jane Gwendoline Farrow.
John George’s wife died and he married Ada Margaret Alderson in 1898.
Can’t find them in the 1901 census but they’re there in 1911 – John George Guthrie, Master Mariner, born Blyth on Tyne.

Your knowledge of other 'parts' of the family give you an advantage over me, and means you can join the dots more easily. (Once you've had a shove in the right direction. )

Still can’t find any trace of Catherine in the 1881 or 1891 censuses though.
I’m beginning to think she was living in t’ shoebox in t’ middle o’ road.
Going to have to stop now.
I’ve sat here so long I’ve gone numb.
Plus there’s a massive thunderstorm going on outside. Don’t want to get blown up.
Thanks again,
Michele

She might have been living under a gooseberry bush.

In an effort to find if she might have been living with one of her elder maternal step-siblings, I'll try to follow them on the census. (Not quite so easy with the Watson surname.)

1861
RG10/3832 folio 97 page 49. Living in Byker
George Watson, 29, forgeman (iron), Durham
Sarah, wife, 25
William, 5,
Mary J, 2
Alexander, 4 months
Mary A Young, mother-in-law, 61, Alnwick
Sarah and the kids all born Newcastle.

1871
RG11/5106 folio 17 page 28 Living in Byker.
Mary Ann Young, head, widow, 71
Sarah Watson, daur, widow, 35, dressmaker
William, 15, clerk
Mary Jane, 12, scholar
Alexandra (sic), 10, scholar
Francis, 6, (granddaughter, so should be spelt Frances)
Thomas, 1
All children have Watson surname, and said to be grandson/daughter by use of ditto marks for the 'grand' bit, apart from Thomas who has no ditto marks and is therefore indexed as son.
Everyone born Newcastle on Tyne.

Likely death registration for Mary Ann Young. Aged 74, March quarter 1874 Newcastle on Tyne registration district.

Ooooooooooooooooooh!
This puts the cat amongst the pigeons.

1881
RG11/ folio page. Living in Ripponden Street, Byker (same as in 1871, except at #23 instead of #3)
Sarah WATSON, head, widow, 45, stay maker
William, son, 25, blacksmith
Alex/Alec, son, 20, blacksmith
Frances/Francis, daur, 16, stay maker
Thomas, son, 11, scholar
All born Newcastle on Tyne.

No Catherine.

So, have we been adding the wrong 2 and 2 together?

In which case - and very definitely

Having real trouble locating Mary Jane in 1881 - so many possibilities.

Pam

[Pam Downes]

Snap.

[MichelePhillips]

Hi Pam,
I can't believe we posted at exactly the same time.
And I don't think we've been putting the wrong two and two together - it's just a bit of a tangled web.
I was going in no direction at all until you gave me a shove and for that I'm very grateful.
I've no doubt at all now that Catherine was brought up by the Guthries - just as my Mum said.
How depressing about her mother though. I'd like to smack her across the back of the head.
Michele

[MichelePhillips]

Hello, I wanted to let you know how I've been getting on since I was put on the right track by Pam

I sent off for this birth cert at the beginning of February and only just got it today.

Possible birth registration - Catherine Watson, March quarter 1872, Tynemouth registration district.

Unfortunately, it's not my Catherine Watson so I'm now going to send for a birth cert searching one year either side of 1872.

This gives me the option of filling in Catherine's mother's and father's names.

I'm not sure how the GRO works. Would it mess things up if I entered the name of her father and he's not on the certificate?

Should I just put in her mother's name and hope for the best?

Many thanks,

Michele.