How did my Grandfather die at Ypres?

[mikejduk]

This may appear to be a very naive question, however, I'm new to chasing up the war record for my maternal Grandfather and I would like to find out more.

As a youngster I recall my mother always proudly boasting that her Dad, Private Thomas Parsons SR 7233, was wounded in WW1 and killed in WW2. She was only six when he was killed so she could be forgiven for getting it wrong. From the information I've traced about him, he signed up in 1903 at the age of 18 and was KIA on 12th November 1914. So, I figure he may have been wounded during training exercises and was sent home on medical grounds, or he completed his 3 years Conscription, then when WW1 broke out was called up and subsequently KIA during the first push for YPRES. He was with the Cheshire regiment's 1st Battalion. I have found his WW1 record that confirms he is mentioned at the Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial.

I would like to find out:

1. What happened on the 12th November 1914. Are there any diaries or records that state the actions of the Cheshire regiment's 1st Battalion that date? Looking for this information in the records here has turned up nothing. From the searches I've carried out they don't even recognise the Cheshire regiment were there on that fateful day.

2. When a soldier is recorded as Killed in Action but had no identifiable corpse to confirm the fact, who and on what basis did they decide that a particular soldier was killed?

3. Did they do a head count on the hour or at the end of a watch or day?

4. If the identity of the bodies weren't established or recovered, were they generally buried where they were killed?

5. Why were some soldiers' bodies never given a proper burial in marked graves after the war?

6. Does any work retrieving the buried on the battle fields still take place today?

7. Can the awarding of his medals post-humously to his widow be confirmed and if they weren't would his surviving next of kin still be entitled to them?

Hope you'll forgive the list. You know how it is . . . enthusiastic newcomer

Many thanks in advance for any help or advice anyone can offer, as long as it's in the positive

Mike D

[christanel]

Hello Mike and welcome to British-Genealogy free forums sponsored by FWR

War diaries are held by The National Archives and can be downloaded for a small fee. I wouldn't think you will see mention of Thomas as an individual but it may tell you what the battalion was doing. See them Here

You have seen Thomas' record on the CWGC site?

Others may be able to answer some of your other questions.
The National Archives site is a mine of information so you could browse around it and see if there is anything relevant to your questions. Also The Long Long Trail site Here has some information re your question what happened to soldiers who died in the war.

Christina

[geneius]

You will find a damaged war record on ancestry at
British Army WWI Service Records, 1914-1920 for Thomas Parsons page 227704

There is also correspondence with his widow Susan BAYLE of Lonsdale St MIllom Cumbs

An aside I now realise why my grandparents house was called Lonsdale....they came from Millom!

[mikejduk]

Many thanks, Christina,

I have found the War diary for the 1st Battalion of the Cheshire regiment, paid my fee and now I'm locked out with an error message that won't let me download the documents. I'll leave it till later today and try again.

Yes, I have found my Grandfather's war record on the CWGC site. However, this only covers his time from the commencement of the war until his death on the 12th November 1914.. He signed up originally in 1903 at the age of 18 so I'd be interested to learn what he got up to before the war.

Happen I don't share the same logic but I find the National Archives website quite user unfriendly but I'll stick with it and see what I can find.

Many thanks once again. Mike D

[mikejduk]

You will find a damaged war record on ancestry at
British Army WWI Service Records, 1914-1920 for Thomas Parsons page 227704

There is also correspondence with his widow Susan BAYLE of Lonsdale St MIllom Cumbs

An aside I now realise why my grandparents house was called Lonsdale....they came from Millom!

Oh wow! As soon as I read what you mention about my Gran, Susan Bayle, the hairs on the back of my neck stood upright! I'll go look for the record you refer to. Thank you so much for this, I'll let you know how I get on. The curious thing is, I was sure Bayle was the name of the guy my Gran married after my Grandfather Thomas Parsons died. And strangely, you refer to Thomas's correspondence with his widow of the name Bayle. And furthermore, Thomas's war record has his widow down as Susan Bayle. Interesting. Either my Gran remarried whilst Thomas was away at war or she didn't hang around after he died. And yet she was a lovely, typical old cuddly Grandma. Mike Dickinson

[jac65]

Hi

When you look at his Service Record make sure you look at the following pages as you will see the correspondence about his medals etc is dated well after the war ended. Also, the additional information on the CWGC website naming his parents and widow is from a form sent out in the 1920s by which time his widow had remarried. Looking at the GRO Index his widow remarried in 1916.

Looking at his Service Record it looks like he joined up in 1903, served for 3 years and then was a Reservist. He was then called back to duty in 1914. There is a reference to him being treated for sore feet, and for scabies, perhaps wounding is an exaggeration. It looks like he was declared dead in 1915, the 12th November 1914 was probably the last sighting of him. Like many in WW1 his body was probably never found or identified.

Andy

[mikejduk]

Hi

When you look at his Service Record make sure you look at the following pages as you will see the correspondence about his medals etc is dated well after the war ended. Also, the additional information on the CWGC website naming his parents and widow is from a form sent out in the 1920s by which time his widow had remarried. Looking at the GRO Index his widow remarried in 1916.

Looking at his Service Record it looks like he joined up in 1903, served for 3 years and then was a Reservist. He was then called back to duty in 1914. There is a reference to him being treated for sore feet, and for scabies, perhaps wounding is an exaggeration. It looks like he was declared dead in 1915, the 12th November 1914 was probably the last sighting of him. Like many in WW1 his body was probably never found or identified.

Andy

Hi Andy,

many thanks for your help with this. After Genius proved they live up to their name, I revisited the war records and discovered as you have said, by clicking on the forwards and backwards arrows there were further documents revealed about my Grandfather's records. I think you'e right about him serving three years and then re-enlisting in 1914 when war broke out. However, if you look at record 220779 it looks like his first stint in the army was for 10 years? 08.09.03 to 13.08.14. I stand to be corrected of course as he most certainly would have had to have had home leave to father three children, including my mother, who was the eldest. From these records I've also discovered my Gran's maiden name, which had thwarted me for some time. And I've also discovered my mother had a younger brother, also by the name of Thomas, that mysteriously she never ever mentioned to me. I'm not sure what you mean by the GRO Index or where to find it?

Once again, many thanks to you all for your help with this.
Mike Dickinson

[jac65]

Hi

The GRO (General Register Office) Index is the index of Birth, Marriages and Deaths registrations in England & Wales since 1st July 1837. It is on many websites including Ancestry. FreeBMD is the website many people use. https://www.freebmd.org.uk/

Andy

[Ladkyis]

No one seems to have answered your question about why some soldiers have no known grave. This is because they were either buried when the shells threww tons of earth into the air and buried them or they were literally blown away by shellfire. This is one of the reasons the old soldiers never talked about it to anyone other than a fellow survivor. How do you describe seeing your mates vapourised?
They do have a memorial though. Every name inscribed on the Menin Gate is a soldier with no known grave. There is a ceremony every night when they are remembered. There are also memorials at the CWGC (Commonwealth War Graves Commission) burial grounds of men who fell in that area but have nothing to bury.
As for still searching for bodies, well I think that whenever bones are discovered then every effort is made to discover who they are and then they are buried in the CWGC burial ground, or if they trace any family and they want to bury them then they are brought home and the headstone is a CWGC one and the grave will be looked after by CWGC.
Hope this helps

[mikejduk]

Hi

The GRO (General Register Office) Index is the index of Birth, Marriages and Deaths registrations in England & Wales since 1st July 1837. It is on many websites including Ancestry. FreeBMD is the website many people use. https://www.freebmd.org.uk/

Andy

Thanks for that info. Yes, I have tried the free BMD and found it very useful.