Army Ordnance Corps: Clues from 1916 photo

[thewideeyedowl]

I'd like to tie up the different strands of this thread - the AOC, Calais Depot, 17th Lancashire Fusiliers - and then, hopefully, re-focus on the AOC.

The AOC was all to do with the supply and issue of munitions and related items. From The Western Front Association, I learn that in 1914 it comprised just eight companies but by 1916 there were 42. A Division would have had one Ordnance officer and one clerk, but by the end of 1916 that officer had 14 clerks:

https://www.westernfrontassociation.c...-services.html

i.e. some of the men would have been involved in administrative duties. This ties in with what my grandmother said: that Walter (Post #1) was graded C3 [the lowest grading for active service] and was well behind the lines. As he was a bank clerk in civilian life, an admin role would probably have suited his capabilities. I still do not know exactly where he served, other than "France", which is a big place.

To show the sheer quantity of supplies, and tie in with Post #7(?) about Calais, here is info I have just found on the Western Front Association webpage:

"The AOC issued immense quantities of ammunition for anything from a rifle to a monster siege gun. Some idea of the range and scale of other items supplied can be gained from the following issues made by the Calais Base Ordnance Depot (there was another at Havre) during the first ten months of 1916: 11,000 compasses, 7000 watches, 40,000 miles of cable, 40,000 torches, 3,500,000 yards of flannelette, 1,250,000 yards of rot-proof canvas, 26,000 tents, 1,500,000 waterproof sheets, 12,800 cycles, 20,000 wheels, 5,000,000 anti-gas helmets, 4,000,000 pairs of horse and mule shoes, 447,000 Lewis gun magazines and 2,250,000 bars of soap. There was, of course, much else besides including weapons, clothing, footwear and blankets."

(If I have mis-interpreted info I have just found, please correct me. Thank you.)

Owl

PS Richard - thank you so much for posting the photo of A/Cpl Willie. Much appreciated. Presumably the writing on the back identified the location??

[thewideeyedowl]

Have just found this informative thread on the RACOnline Forum: https://raoc.websitetoolbox.com/post/...-Notes-5189476. It explains a lot. The Calais camp was opened in 1915. (Was my grandfather there?????)

Owl

[breesy]

Owl, Christina and Robert,

Thank you for all your combined information.

I've been absent for a while but now I've got the time to reply to your recent posts.

Glad you appreciated the photo, Owl. Yes, the inscription on the back mentions it being at the Ordnance Depot, Audruicq Camp, April 1919.

It's very interesting to learn about the peace-keeping roll of the 17th Lancashire Fusiliers, although I have to admit I'm not totally convinced that my grandfather was there for that purpose. My attention has been caught by your last post, Owl, about the administrative duties of some men. My grandfather never really talked of the war; the only reference I can recall him making to it was to say that he never fought but was channeled into an admin roll because of his clerical skills and his beautiful handwriting. This would seem to tie in.

Could the 17th LF have supplied men for this role too ? Does anyone know of a way that I could get a definitive answer ?
Can anyone identify the other cap badge in my photo ? There only seems to be me grandfather and one other chap with the LF cap badge.

Any further help always gratefully received, as always.

Many thanks,
Richard

[Ladkyis]

OWL, I have just seen this today and studied your picture carefully. In my experience (two sons in the army) the wearing of uniform was always very correct at the beginning. Too many corporals and sergeants watching you to be able to take liberties but as service progressed the angle of headgear and the shape of the peak of a cap would subtly change - usually after they had "passed off" or "Passed Out" of training and become proper soldiers so by the look of them they were through their training and were "real" soldiers in the photograph.
Absolutely fascinating

[thewideeyedowl]

Thank you so much Ladkyis - that insight is invaluable and might help to pinpoint a time when this photograph was taken. There seem to be abut 113 or so men in this photo. Would that be the size of a Company?

I have been reading a little bit about the role of clerks in WW1. There were two types - Staff clerks and Unit clerks. I have dismissed the idea a Staff appointment. But as Walter is standing directly behind the captain, I now wonder whether he was one of the Unit clerks(?); and were the other men immediately in the line with him also Unit clerks(?). (But how many clerks did a Unit have?)

Here is a further photo that shows a group of the AOC men in the walled garden of a private house (by the looks of it):



Walter George EZARD is standing far right and the man sitting far left might be "my chess friend Beech" - I have been cropping and peering at these folk to try to garner clues, any clues. WGE turned 32 in October 1916, and the men in this photo look as if they are his contemporaries, i.e. in their 30s or maybe early 40s. They are certainly not young lads.

I am wondering whether this photo might have been taken before embarkation, possibly late summer/early autumn (1916?). The flowers suggest that season. The high wall with abundant greenery suggests quite a large garden - the sort of garden that would go with a substantial house. I therefore think it could be the garden of my great-grandparents' house. (In 1911 they were living at 12 Riversdale Road, West Kirby, a house with 10 rooms.) Was there some sort of farewell party for these men and then the photo was taken? Unfortunately there are no clues on the back.

Breesy - I must now say a big 'thank you' for coming in with what had, initially, looked like a red herring (Lancashire Fusiliers/Ordnance Depot/Calais). It meant that I had to find out something about Ordnance Depots and - well - one thing has led to another, as is the way of research. Though I must emphasise that it is still hypothetical, it would make sense that my own grandfather was a clerk in the Calais or Le Havre Ordnance Depots. Huge shipments must have been received almost every day, so of course they would go to a Depot near a port to be processed and then sent out as needed. And I am guessing that my grandfather might have been one of the clerks in that Depot who was doing the admin. But will I ever know??

And, Breesy, as Units had a clerk/clerks, perhaps that was the role of your own grandfather in the Lancashire Fusiliers. I am now hoping that someone who knows about the organisation/administration of Units during WW1 will come in and give some expert help. That's what we both need!

Swooping off.

Owl

Owl

[thewideeyedowl]

Well, I am still nudging at this strand of the research and have joined the Great War Forum. My respondent there has been very helpful with regards to possible enlistment date and mobilisation, working from info about three other soldiers who had numbers near to '016866' and whose records survive. It seems that my grandfather may have joined under the Derby Scheme. Here is the most relevant snippet from the reply:

"Your grandfather would have been in Group 13 as a result of his age and marital status, their mobilisation date was the 29th February, though it was possible to obtain a deferment, it's possible that if he was mobilised in February he would have had a medical and the Army had to decide what to do with them. His attestation was probably late 1915 so he would have been in the Army Reserve from that date."

This photograph has been found:




The key thing here is that my grandfather is not in this photograph (as far as I can see, anyway). The men in this group would have undergone/been undergoing weapons training. And I think I can match some of them with the men in the garden pic posted earlier.

So the next question is this: Would a man who had been designated for clerical duties from the start - he was Grade C3 - have been exempted from weapons training? The answer to that one might give some more clues.

Owl

[thewideeyedowl]

I have just revisited the thread linked to in #12 above, https://raoc.websitetoolbox.com/post/...9476?&trail=25. There are about thirty posts, over two pages. Post #1 gives the names of the supply depots and what they did; post #27 focuses on AOC personnel. It makes the point that Grade A men in the Corps were often sent on to infantry regiments as front-line fodder, and so the depots had to rely on Grade C men.

My grandfather was Grade C. Though nothing can be confirmed with any certainty, the information strengthens my belief that he was assigned to one of the base depots on the French coast. (We know that he served in France but "well behind the lines". He was a bank clerk in civilian life,)

To date, I have not been able to find any lists of AOC clerks and their postings. (It probably doesn't exist!)

Off to roost.

Owl

[r4inb0w87]

My great grandfather was in the AOC Cpl William Taylor Ferguson

[thewideeyedowl]

Hi there and a very warm welcome to Brit Gen...

Very interesting to see the photo of your great-grandfather. I have now re-visited the Great War Forum (which has given me a lot of help with the AOC) and it looks as if you too have posted there. Well, they say "Great minds.....", don't they?!

I was wondering whether you could move this research thread forward by giving nitty-gritty info about the AOC - and, as you will see from my posts, I am particularly interested in what happened at the base camps in northern France.

However, if you would really like some help in building up the family background of your great-grandfather before he left the UK, I am going to suggest that you start a new thread devoted to him - perhaps in the General History forum - with the title William Taylor FERGUSON, b1897 or 1899, Clackmannan. That is likely to attract a lot of specific interest. Forum sleuths would love to help you trace William and his family in the 1911 and 1901 censuses, and quite possibly in other records too. But perhaps you know a great deal about him already from the time before he left for the States?

Swooping off.

Owl