Irving in Manchester and Dumfriesshire

[DianaCanada]

I am looking for more information on Matthew Irving who lived in Manchester, England from at least 1808-1841. Unless there were two Matthew Irvings living there at the same time, I believe he is the same one who appears in the 1851 and 1861 census for Scotland living with Isabella Graham and her brother William Pool. Matthew is described as their uncle. The Scottish censuses indicate he was born ca 1777 in Annan, Dumfriesshire. He is described as a manufacturer.
I have gathered quite a bit of information on Matthew, who appears to have been a fustian cutter before becoming a property owner and fustian manufacturer. If there indeed was only one by this name living in Manchester at the time, he married (1) Mary Combs, and (2) Ann Whitelegg. A number of children were born to Matthew and Mary according to baptismal records and I need to do more research but do know several of them died young.
What is confusing is that I have found a Nathaniel Irving in English and Scottish records who is Matthew’s son. He is born ca 1808 in Manchester according to both English and Scottish census records, but I have found no baptism for him.
I myself descend from a William Irving who marries in Manchester at the Cathedral in 1781 (Mary Schofield) and together they have nine children baptized as Presbyterians at a Unitarian Church. At least two of the children died young, but of the other seven, I have only traced my own ancestor, who was also named Matthew. William was born ca 1757, according to his age on his burial record in 1809. At that point he was described as a fustian cutter. Earlier on one of his children’s baptisms, he was a shopkeeper.
I am trying to find something to link the two Irvings (William b. ca 1757 and Matthew b. ca 1777) if there is indeed a link. They were both fustian cutters, and both lived on Wood Street in Manchester, although possibly not at the same time. William named a son Matthew – I did find references to other Matthew Irvings in Dumfriesshire.
Would love to hear from anyone who might know something about any of these Irvings.

[grisel]

Hello Diane

Have you checked Scotland's people? Doing a free search, there is a death of an 85 yr old Mathew (note spelling) Irving in Dornock, Dumfries in 1863 and a corresponding 3 page will in the Will and Testament search. To view details you need to register and buy a few credits. Possibly your Matthew as he was in Dornock in 1861.

There is also a will for a William Pool , formerly of Manchester, d 1875 Dornock.

[DianaCanada]

Thank you Grisel, for your response. Yes, I have had a look at Scotlands People. I actually bought a few credits, but couldn't seem to figure out how to view the documents. I did find on Anc*** someone had posted the death record you mentioned - there were two Matthew Irvings of the same age living in that area of Scotland at the time. The one who died in the year you mentioned is listed as a "seaman" and a number of children are referenced. I believe he is a different person altogether. Irving is not an uncommon name in the area.
I just had a thought though. Nathaniel Irving, the son of Matthew, died in Scotland. Would I be able to obtain his death certificate? At least I would be able to see who his mother was - if it was one of the wives I found for Matthew Irving in Manchester, at least I would know he is the same man who later returned to Dumfriesshire. If his mother is someone else, obviously I have two men and need to sort them out. Unfortunately there does not seem to be a death record for one of them, let alone two.

[christanel]

You say that Matthew Irving born c1877 Annan Dumfrieshire was with his niece and nephew in 1851 and 1861 but I can only find them together in 1861. Isabella Graham born c 1794 Annan and William Pool born c 1789 Annan
In 1851 the only one I can see is
Browhouses Graitney
Mathew Irving 74 retired merchant born Annan
Mathew Irving 6 grandson born Graitney
Janet Irving 15 servant born Kirkpatrick Fling
I am having trouble locating Isabella Graham and William Pool in 1851 Scotland for sure.

Searching for a Mat*hew Irving and using a birth date 1780 +/- 5 years there are 3 on the 1841 census. The one in Manchester born 1781, another one in Cumberland 1785 and born there and another born Scotland c1781 but living in Dorset.
I think the one in Cumberland dies in 1843 according to FreeBMD

I am still searching but I will post this before I lose it all.

Christina

[grisel]

Thank you Grisel, for your response. Yes, I have had a look at Scotlands People. I actually bought a few credits, but couldn't seem to figure out how to view the documents. I did find on Anc*** someone had posted the death record you mentioned - there were two Matthew Irvings of the same age living in that area of Scotland at the time. The one who died in the year you mentioned is listed as a "seaman" and a number of children are referenced. I believe he is a different person altogether. Irving is not an uncommon name in the area.
I just had a thought though. Nathaniel Irving, the son of Matthew, died in Scotland. Would I be able to obtain his death certificate? At least I would be able to see who his mother was - if it was one of the wives I found for Matthew Irving in Manchester, at least I would know he is the same man who later returned to Dumfriesshire. If his mother is someone else, obviously I have two men and need to sort them out. Unfortunately there does not seem to be a death record for one of them, let alone two.

Yes there are two Mat(t)hew Irvings of around the same age who died around the same time - but I really am fairly sure you want the Mathew Irving who died in Dornock in 1863 not the other who died in Annan in 1866. To see this on SP - Click on statutory deaths on page. Put in Irving and Mathew , birth year 1778 exact, death year 1863, dumfries as county and Dornock(Dumfries) as district, as search terms. Click to view match (1 credit) This should show index for Mathew Irving d 1863 Dornock. You then need to click again to view image (5 credits)

For the will , go to Wills and Testaments on lhs of page, then put irving and mathew and Dumfries Sheriff court in Courts and commissaries. View results. Shows will for a Mathew Irving of Dornock. Will cost 10 credits to view it.

Similarly for William Pool's will. There is also a will for a Nathaniel Irving d 1892 Dornock. There is a death for Nathaniel Irving in Dornock in 1892 in stautory deaths which is probably the one. There are a couple of other Nathaniel Irving deaths in Annan.

Hope this helps.

[grisel]

Yes there are two Mat(t)hew Irvings of around the same age who died around the same time - but I really am fairly sure you want the Mathew Irving who died in Dornock in 1863 not the other who died in Annan in 1866. To see this on SP - Click on statutory deaths on page. Put in Irving and Mathew , birth year 1778 exact, death year 1863, dumfries as county and Dornock(Dumfries) as district, as search terms. Click to view match (1 credit) This should show index for Mathew Irving d 1863 Dornock. You then need to click again to view image (5 credits)

For the will , go to Wills and Testaments on lhs of page, then put irving and mathew and Dumfries Sheriff court in Courts and commissaries. View results. Shows will for a Mathew Irving of Dornock. Will cost 10 credits to view it.

Similarly for William Pool's will. There is also a will for a Nathaniel Irving d 1892 Dornock. There is a death for Nathaniel Irving in Dornock in 1892 in stautory deaths which is probably the one. There are a couple of other Nathaniel Irving deaths in Annan.

Hope this helps.

And interestingly in 1881 at the same address as before (Ivy Cottage Dornock) Isabella Graham age 88 is now with daughter Agnes and son in law Nathaniel Irving retired fustian manufacturer - so I think Agnes the daughter has married her mother Isabella's cousin (Matthew's son)

[DianaCanada]

Thank you. I did find Nathaniel Irving's marriage to Agnes Graham in Manchester on Anc**; I think that would make Agnes Nathaniel's second cousin. I also found a baptismal record for an illegitimate son of Nathaniel's, by a widow named Elizabeth Barnes. No further trace of this child, Nathaniel also.
This was a few years before he married Agnes.
I will be working on how to download a viewer so I can see things from Scotlands People!

[DianaCanada]

Grisel, thank you. This will certainly help me sort out this branch of the Irvings, and I hope supply some information that ties them to my William in Manchester.

[grisel]

Grisel, thank you. This will certainly help me sort out this branch of the Irvings, and I hope supply some information that ties them to my William in Manchester.

Evidence does seem to point to the 1863 death being correct - fingers crossed - and if so should give his parents' names and occupation.

SP have a baptism 1777 Annan - could be your Matthew or the other one - but if you get his parents' names that may become clear.

Not sure what the will might hold - it would be wonderful if it connected to your own family. So far I haven't seen anything to connect the two families I'm afraid.

Please do let us know if you turn up anything of interest that might help!

Grisel

(and persevere with Scotland's people image viewer. From memory it wasn't straightforward to set up, but that was a long time ago. Currently I have java installed and can bring up images fairly quickly)