I have hit a brick wall with this family

[scouse007]

Hi
I need some help, have been researching my family for a few year's but this part has got me stumped, A sad tale,

Starts with a sibling of my 2nd great grand uncle Samuel Gibson b 1817 Liverpool Lancashire England
I have no death for him...His parents were Samuel and Catherine Casement.
He married Agnes Charnley 3 July 1837...Carnt find no birth but believed to be born around 1821,she died 1859... Her Father was William Charnley a Bricklayer born around 1794 in Liverpool (trade Bricklayer as said on marriage banns) Can not find him in any census, only marriage for him in Liverpool stating he is a bricklayer is to a Alice Dutton...no information on her...Agnes was a fish mkt trader and Samuel was a Plasterer they went on to have five children :
Samuel 1840 to 1859
William 1841 to 1859
Joseph 1842
Thomas 1844
Alice Jane 1847
Young Samuel - William and the Mother Agnes all died within weeks of each other in 1859...one son died of a brain fever, followed by the other (don't know which died of which)died in a tragic accident on the Chester railway, Agnes turned to drink and one night fell into the River Dingle in Liverpool, inquest report said she had taken her own life...there news paper clippings regarding this which I have and clippings regarding her fish stall. Such a sad tale...My dilema is I don't know Agnes's birth, have no census with her parents, possible marriage for her parents...William and Alice Dutton 22 Dec 1812, both them and their daughter married in St Peters in Liverpool.
BUT Samuel after losing two children and his wife, fought to keep the fish stall empty as a memorial to his wife. come 1861 there is no sign of him anywhere or the children, any help would be appreciated.

Thanks Colin

[almach]

I see only one Samuel Gibson on 1841 and 1851 census in Liverpool, and born 1817 +/- 2yrs.

A Samuel Gibson, abode: Workhouse, Walton Park, was buried 19th June 1859 aged 40yrs, could this be 'your' Samuel?

[almach]

Maybe Alice Jane

1861, Liverpool, RG 9; Piece: 2667; Folio: 70; Page: 63

Alice Ashton 71, Laundress
William Ashton 21, son, boatman
Alice J Gibson 13, grand dau.

[almach]

Liverpool St Nicholas, 22nd Sept 1862.
Joseph Gibson [minor] Labourer, can't make out address Gr??? poss Grey Rd, father Samuel [plasterer]
Margaret Kelly [minor] Milton ???, father James Kelly [labourer]
Witnesses, Patrick [J?]avin and Rose Ann ?oss. Sorry but the writing is bad, could be Moss, Ross, Joss etc.

[almach]

Perhaps a mistranscription? It's from the Bishop's Transcripts. Maybe worth you trying to locate the marriage in the parish register.

'Lancashire England Marriages and Banns 1754 - 1936.
Liverpool St Peter, 5th March 1833.
John Ashton, carter and Alice Chandler, widow.
Witnesses: Richard Evans and Elizabeth Howard

ETA: The parish register is on Ancestry and does seem to say Chandler, but indexed as Chaudler.

Could the surname on Samuel and Agnes' marriage be a mistranscription?

[almach]

Baptisms St Martin in the Fields, Liverpool
Parents John [carter] and Alice.
Ellen Ashton 15th Sept 1833 and William 17th Jan 1836.

Liverpool St Peter, 17th Jan 1842: James Ashton son of John [carter] and Alice

[almach]

Giving up for tonight, as I'm finding records which are confusing me

[scouse007]

Hi Almach
Thanks for helping me with this headache...
Yes I have come across some of the ones you have come across, certainly not a straight forward one is it...I will look into the workhouse one,, I have the marriage of Samuel and Agnes, and one for a possible William Charnley and Alice Dutton. the census records after 1859 are eluding me... The marriage of Samuel and Agnes say William was a Bricklayer and when I have looked at all the William Charnleys in Liverpool around that time , there is one whom is a bricklayer whom married Alice Dutton....but no census's or births.worked on this for a couple of weeks, it's strange...if they were in workhouses they would I assume show up on a census surely....

[Pam Downes]

Hi Almach
Thanks for helping me with this headache...
Yes I have come across some of the ones you have come across, certainly not a straight forward one is it...I will look into the workhouse one,, I have the marriage of Samuel and Agnes, and one for a possible William Charnley and Alice Dutton. the census records after 1859 are eluding me... The marriage of Samuel and Agnes say William was a Bricklayer and when I have looked at all the William Charnleys in Liverpool around that time , there is one whom is a bricklayer whom married Alice Dutton....but no census's or births.worked on this for a couple of weeks, it's strange...if they were in workhouses they would I assume show up on a census surely....

Often people in the workhouse were listed only by their initials in the census, the 1861 census being 'notorious' for it.
Ages and birthplaces are as accurate as they are for people who are not in the workhouse. (Some people are spot on with their age and birthplace in every census. Others age 23 years over a period of three census, and say they were born in three different places! )

If you look at the actual census image you usually find an occupation is given.

Pam

[almach]

Hi Scouse007,

I did see possible sightings for Joseph and Thomas last night, I'll go back and look and get back to you.

Re: Alice Jane Gibson #3 with Alice Ashton, I think she has to be yours. Alice Ashton named as her grandmother possibly remarried John Ashton #5 where it says Alice was a widow, if this is Alice nee Dutton we need to find a death for her first husband William.

The marriage for Joseph #5 looks good.