Rittmann or Rothman from Romania

[crickle9]

I am trying to find out information about my grandfather, whose name was Samuel Rittmann, Rittman, Rothman, Rothmann. His surname has various different spellings on different documents that I have.

The main document I have about him is his wedding certificate to my grandma, Basya (Betsy) Cohen. They were married in London in 1900, plus a Jewish wedding certificate. His father was called Hyman and both Hyman and Samuel were tailors.

The only other thing I know is that my grandfather came from Romania, but do not know which part. My mother once mentioned he was Romanian and I think she mentioned Bessarabia. On his gravestone, there is no mention of any family members, so I do not know if he came to London by himself or with any of his family. He married my grandmother in 1900, so I presume he came here in the late 1890s.

I know after he was married, he lived with my grandma's sister and her family initially. However, is there any records that would show his arrival in the UK and that would give his town of origin or any other information?

Thanks for any assistance given.

[phillip]

The GRO Marriage Index Record for Samuel RITTMANN and Betsy COHEN is Sept qtr 1900 Mile End 1c 878.
I have taken a brief look at the 1901 and 1911 British Census for Samuel and Betsy using the various surnames listed in #1 but can't locate them as yet. I have also used the country of origin under Romania for Samuel and can see numbers of Samuel's born in that country but not with the required surnames.
Can you post the full description of the GRO Marriage Certificate you hold for Samuel and Betsy which gives their ages and other details.
Phillip

[crickle9]

Thank you Philip for your assistance. As mentioned, I have different documents regarding my grandfather under different names.

• On the Jewish Wedding Certificate (original) in 1900, my grandfather is named as Rittmann. My grandparents were married in the East London Synagogue.
• Under the 1911 census, name is listed as Rodiman!
• On my mum’s birth certificate in 1919, it is Rothmann
• On my grandfather’s gravestone, it is Rothman, which is the name the family used in the end!
• I cannot find my copy of the 1901 census, but I recall that my grandparents lived with grandma’s sister and brother in law, Hershel Harris Rosenberg and Rochel/Rachel Cohen Rosenberg.

I do not have the original wedding certificate of my grandparents, but obtained a copy from Tower Hamlets. It states my grandfather is aged 24 and grandma is 23, although the writing is not clear. However, on the 1911 Census he is listed as age 32 and she is aged 36. This has to be wrong regarding my grandma, as I know her birthday was December 1877. I remember this clearly as a child and it also matches up with her gravestone.

The wedding certificate is dated 11/9/1900 and the names listed are Samuel Rottmann and Betsy Cohen. He is listed as a Tailor, but she does not have a profession. He is aged 24 and she is 23 although it looks like 28 from the writing, which as mentioned above, is wrong. His father’s occupation was a Tailor and her’s was a Butcher. His father was called Hyman Rottmann (deceased) and her’s was Aaron Cohen. Residence at the time of marriage is completely undecipherable. Witnesses are Israel Greenberg and Alvin Kel, whoever they are. On the corner of the certificate there is a code AB 636051.

I hope the above information is sufficient to track down further information on my grandfather and I thank you in advance.

[phillip]

For clarity and to help other researchers here is the 1911 British Census for Samuel RODIMAN aka ROTMAN referred to in #2 of thios thread:
40 Wicker Street St George in the East RG14 1513 (Crown Copyright,TNA)
Samuel RODMAN H 32 Married 11 years 5 children all living b RUSSIA
Betty wife 36 b RUSSIA
Hyman son 10 b England
Solomon son 8 b England
Fanny dau 10 b England
Levey son 3 b England
Isy son 6 mths b England

Nb Samuel signs the record as RODIMAN but the census recorder writes S ROTMAN

At 40 Wicker St are Anna COHEN widow age 43 with 5 daughters b Russia- Is she a Cohen relative?

Phillip

[phillip]

My error- Samuel and family are at 38 Wicker St in 1911 Census.
Phillip

[phillip]

I have not put down the full Census data as yet but in the 1901 Census at 2 Gordon St there are Simon Cohen with wife Lizzie and sister Rose born Roumania Foreign Subjects with Solomon Landon father in law widower and Harris Rosenberg boarder 22 s Hairdresser? b Roumania Forign Subject ( I have not put all the children)- are these your relatives?
Phillip

[crickle9]

Yes, the 1911 census you sent me is correct, although my grandma was called Betsy, rather than Betty. (However, on her gravestone it has incorrectly Bessie!!!) The children mentioned in the census were my aunt and uncles. My mum came much later.

I do not know who Anna Cohen is as I have never came across this name. Unfortunately, Cohen is a common name like Smith!

Hershel Harris Rosenberg was born in Sztabin, Lithuania according to information that was sent to me. He was a Grocer at one time. I just seem to have misfiled the 1901 census details mentioning that my grandparents lived with Hershel and his wife at the time of that census.

Do you know if immigrants were documented when they arrived in the UK in the 1890s? There must be some records somewhere giving Samuel Rittmann's birthplace details?

Thanks, once again, for your help.

[phillip]

There are Denizations and Naturalisation records HO1; HO45;HO144 and Naturalisations granted from 1841-1935 on TNA online catalogue ( The National Archives,UK). There are also Class HO2 Passenger Lists and Returns of Certificates of Aliene. Ancestry.Com has the UK Incoming Passenger Lists 1878-1960. However, I know from my own research that the surnames of immigrants might bear no resemblance to the names recorded or used by the individuals themselves. For example, Samuel signed the 1911 Census as Rodiman and the census recorder wrote Rotman. You take my point regarding the ambiguity in last name use. In addition, Naturalisation requests cost money and may immigrants never sought to become naturalised.
I have looked for Samuel on the National Archives and on the Passenger Lists using a wide variation in names but can't find him. Many immigrant records were never recorded. I doubt if Samuel arrived in the UK on a well documented passenger ship and also suspect he was one of the thousands of Jews escaping the anti Jewish pogroms which were becoming wide spread and severe in Russia and Romania during the period he is likely to have arrived in the UK.
You have in the 1911 Census a generic term of Russia for Samuel and Betsy place of origin - this can encompass a wide range of countries/regions within that Empire-there is no mention of BS Naturalised recorded by Samuel or Betsy in 1911 but that is not to say they were not but again I tend to doubt this.
Does the 1901 Census say where Samuel was born?
Phillip

[crickle9]

Hi Philip,

Thank you for the information. I recall my uncle, who died in about 1996, telling me that his parents were dirt poor and that my grandfather was always in poor health. Therefore his choosing to be naturalised and any costs involved, seems very unlikely.

Yes I have come across people from Poland and other countries, describing themselves as Russian, as borders changed. However, I am 100% that my grandfather came from Romania. I just have it in my mind that my mum once talked of Bessarabia, which is now Moldova, but I just wished I had asked for more information, both of her and my uncle.

I am not sure if there is anything else you or I can do, as I think that perhaps Samuel was not documented on his arrival to the UK. How different it is these days. If you have any further ideas, please let me know; otherwise thank you most kindly for all the time you have put into helping me.

Kindest regards.

[phillip]

Can I suggest you take a look at JewishGen site Romania SIG (Special Interest Group). Also take a close look at the JewishGen Family Finder. You can register on JewishGen for free and search their resource bases including the UK data bases. There is also the British Jewry website which has a free registration and enables you to post enquiries such as on BG. Keep your options open and don't give up.
Phillip