Joseph Joseph (1763-1850)

[Dom2]

My cousin John Levi (author of These Are The Names) lists the children of Joseph Joseph & Amelia (Nathan) as follows:

David, Sarah, Hyam, Nathan, Louis, Rosetta, Jacob, Tobias, Miriam, Moses, Israel, & Rachel.

I think however he has made a mistake with 2, David & Tobias.

The various census records for Tobias Joseph (abt 1805-99) who lived in Sunderland and married Amelia (nee Samuel) (1803-97), show him to be born in various locales, including Poland & Germany. All of Joseph Joseph's other children were born in England. On the All Leeds Database Tobias Joseph's father is also named Tobias (odd as Ashkenazi Jews did not name their children after family members still living), and was married at the home of David Joseph (presumably his brother) who, with Lyonel Joseph was also a witness. Therefore I conclude that both David & Tobias have nothing to do with Joseph & Amelia. That said if anyone has any substantial evidence to prove their parentage, I would love to hear it.

I also wonder if anyone knows the birth date for Miriam who married Jonas Melbourne Hart (son of Hyams & Brendel), when she died and where they lived. I can find no mention of either except in the will of Miriam's brother the former convict Moses Joseph.

Thanks

[phillip]

Dominic
As a help to other researchers as well as yourself here are various notices/records relating to some of the Joseph in #1 of this thread. I will add more if relevant ( none of the lines relate to my own). The Hebrew Standard of Australasia Fri 24 Dec 1897- Death Mrs Amelai Joseph wife of Tobias Joseph, died Sunderland England aged 94 on Sept 25 1897... she leaves a husband who is also 94 and her children... She is the mother of Mr Phillip Joseph 97 Liverpool St Sydney and Mrs Isaac Goldman of Sunderland England. Mr E Joseph of William St and Mr Joseph, Miss Levy, Mr L Levy of Oxford Square were related to the deceased lady.

Death Feb 1 1899 at Sunderland England, Tobias Joseph the beloved father of Phillip Joseph of Liverpool St, city aged 96 . The Sydney Morning Herald Friday 3 Feb 1897

If relevant, from the Jewish Victorian. Genealogical Information from the Jewish Newspapers 1871-80 transcribed and edited by Doreen Berger, 1999 Publisher Robert Boyd- DAVID JOSEPH Death 18.5.1873 at 16 Norfolk St Sunderland age 66- Fanny Joseph wife; Nissan Joseph so; Clara Joseph daughter; Jacob Cohen son in law; Joseph D Kaufman son in law; H Samuel brother in law; Amelia Joseph sister in law; Sarah Joseph sister in law.

Phillip

[phillip]

Dominic
The Bishop Wearmouth record for the marriage of Tobias Joseph to Amelia Samuel 13 Sept 1837 (see JewishGen UK Records) reads that the Groom's father surname was TOBIAS and first name Joseph. There is a note about the Bride changing her name by Deed Poll but this is in the Groom's section. So, unless I have misread the record the family surname is Tobias and not Joseph. Am I correct or have I misread?
Phillip

[phillip]

Dominic
#1 - Looking at the 1851 Census data and at the JewishGen UK 1851 Census records for David Joseph and Lionel Joseph ( who appear as witnesses in the 1837 marriage of Tobias) it appears that they maybe related..More data is needed but Lionel 's dates are given as 1805-1864 b Amsterdam died Durham and David 1805-1873 born Amsterdam see JewishGen 1851 Census ID 26577. Ancestry Com family trees has David as the son of Hyam Joseph 1783 -1878 and Hannah Davis 1788-1873. David's wife is given as Fanny Samuel. The Berger 1871-80 entry for the deaths of both David and Fanny in Sunderland indicated that Fanny's two sisters Amelia and Sarah were married to two Joseph but there is no data to indicate who the 2 Joseph are.
You might want to look more closely at the data on these lines.
Phillip

[Dom2]

Thank you Phillip. You've read info from Jewish Gen correctly, the family name is listed as Tobias. I also note that the minister was Jacob Joseph. After digesting your info I think it most unlikely that either Tobias or David are the sons of Joseph Joseph & Amelia (nee Nathan).

[phillip]

Dominic
Just noted in The Jewish Victorian.Genealogical Information from the Jewish Newspapers 1861-70 transcribed and edited by Doreen Berger, 2004 Publisher Robert Boyd the following- Jacob Joseph - Sunderland Congregation ... its patriarch Jacob Joseph .. died at the age of 92.. he was the oldest tradesman in the parish. He for a few years officiated as a minister at a salary, but commencing his business as a silversmith and jeweller, renounced his salary but continued to discharge his ministerial duties until three years before his death....22.2.1861

Looks like these Joseph/Tobias are related but in what ways is not clear.

With regard to Miriam Joseph what data do you have on her? Just considering name adaptations such as Mary and John for Jonas.
What last date and location can you put for her?
Phillip

[phillip]

Dominic
See Cemetery Scribes site for data on Ayres Quay Jewish Cemetery Sunderland which describes how Elizabeth Samuel daughter of Hart Samuel was sent by her father to Amsterdam to seek a Rabbi for the Congregation of Sunderland. She found Jacob Joseph who later married her and he became the Minister of the Congregation.

You will have already noted Lionel and David Joseph came from Amsterdam as did Hyam Joseph.

Phillip

[phillip]

Dominic
More data from The Jewish Victorian. Genealogical Information from the British Newspapers 1861-70; 71-80 transcribed and edited by Doreen Berger; 2004; 1999 Publisher Robert Boyd- this helps clarify some of the Joseph relationships:
Mr Nissan Joseph with sisters and Mrs Amelia and Sarah Joseph thanks for condolences for their late mother and sister -16 Norfolk St Sunderland 13.3.1874-Fanny Joseph - Death after a long and lingering illness at the residence of her son 16 Norfolk St Sunderland relict of the late David Joseph.
Nissan Joseph is the nephew of Jacob Joseph the Rabbi of Sunderland - Berger 1861-70- N Joseph Hazan, Shocet and Mohel Sunderland 25.3.1864

Phillip

[Dom2]

They might be connected to my Josephs, I say my Josephs, but I don't descend directly from them as Joseph Joseph, who died Sydney,NSW, in 1850 at his son Moses' house, is my grt x3 grand uncle by marriage. He and wife Amelia emigrated to Australia when elderley.

Re: Miriam & Jonas. I have absolutely no dates for her, but presume that she was born in England, prior to about 1803 as were all other siblings who were born between 1803 & 1826. All I can find for her is this from her brother, Moses' will "My nephew- John Jonas son of my late sister, Miriam Jonas Melbourne Hart" I know nothing of John either. Jonas' brother Asher Hyam Hart married Miriam's sister Rachel.

Just to clarify: Moses Joseph was transported for life. He was convicted of stealing jewelry from a competitor and sentenced at Warwick Assizes. His subsequent marriage to the free-woman Rosetta (Nathan) was the first official Jewish marriage on Australian soil. After his conditional pardon, he became extremely wealthy and returned to England.

[rockyboy]

Joseph Joseph was the father of Rachel , my 3rd great aunt. She married Asher Hymen Hart at the
Bridge St Synagogue in Sydney Australia in 1840. As to the apparent confusion over whether Joseph was born in Poland or Germany I have come across the same situation. It may depend on which part of Poland
he was born in if he was indeed born in Poland. In the Rintel line of my family they came from southern
Poland in an area where at various times the rulers were either Polish or German. Depending on when Joseph
was born and in what part of Poland if that is the case would indicate who ruled there at the time of his birth.

Rockyboy