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  1. #41

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    Stuart
    Is this Joel Harris your relative? From The Jewish Victorian. Genealogical Information from the Jewish Newspapers 1861-70 transcribed and edited by Doreen Berger, 2004 Publisher Robert Boyd- DEATH- JOEL HARRIS- Death 25.3.1875 at 31 Hackney Road after a short illness, in his 38th year. Nb In the message of thanks for condolences from Mrs Joel Harris and Mr M H HARRIS they are referred to as Joel Harris wife and brother but the address is 361 Hackney Road.

    If you have any data on the Harris and Isaacs with full names and any date of birth; marriage and death there maybe records in the two Berger volumes of 1861-70; 71-80. See also the Anglo Jewish Miscellanies online by Jeffery Maynard which contain similar records but some pre date 1861 and are also post 1880.
    Phillip

  2. #42

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    Stuart
    There is the Bankruptcy record for the Joel Harris referred to in #41- The London Gazette July 4, 1873- Joel Harris 361 Hackney Road Tool Basket Maker and Tool Dealer Bankrupt 28 June 1873. This record indicates that 361 Hackney Road is the correct address.
    Phillip

  3. #43

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    Stuart
    For clarification- is Wulf Marque 21 visitor b Germany married to Sara 22 b Great Yarmouth with their daughter Clara age 15mths b Liverpool who appear in the 1861 British Census with Philip Isaacs RG9 2969 46 1 (Crown Copyright,TNA) the son of Isaac Marks Reader of the Hebrew Congregation Great Yarmouth see HO 107 1806 670 17 1851 British Census? Is Sara,Sara Isaacs and Clara recorded on Free BMD Index Births Clara Marquis Liverpool 8b 172 March qtr 1860?

    The Jewish Victorian Genealogical Information from the Jewish Newspapers 1871-80 transcribed and edited by Doreen Berger, 1999 Publisher Robert Boyd has- Death Rev Isaac Marks -died Baltimore on 19th ult... resided in US 16 years . Formerly, Chazan in Yarmouth ( England) and officiated in London, Nashville, Louisville and New York.. last 6 years in Baltimore.. died in his 61 st year leaving a wife and 6 children..

    You might want to post data on the Isaacs and related families to clarify who is who.
    Phillip

  4. #44

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    Phillip and Adrian
    Re #39 and #40. Thank you both and I hear the voices of experience. Thank you too for your tips and guidance and I shall be following them up. On the face of it the family was missing from the '51,'61 and '91 Census. I managed to find them in the '91 ( incorrect name) but work needs to be done on clarifying the '61 information covered and uncovering the entry in the '71.
    Thank you both again for your help
    Stuart

  5. #45

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    Phillip
    Re #41 and #42 Thanks for the posts but my Joel Harris was 1848 -1926. I realise that you may be going down paths on my behalf with scant information for which I apologise for not clarifying. I will try and post information on birth/death/marriage dates on Harris/Isaacs family later tonight. I am out of the country from tomorrow till end of month but will sign in again when I return.
    Re #43 The Berger information is very interesting and I will certainly look into it when I come back.
    As normal your help and interest is invaluable and encouraging.
    Stuart

  6. #46

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    Stuart
    I can now see which Joel Harris you are researching based on 1 Family Tree on Ancestry Com. I can also see the census gaps between 1851-1881 on that tree. You are going to post on the line in greater detail as stated in your last post. As I understand the current data your Joel Harris b circa 1845 died 1925 was a fishmonger/fish dealer who in July qtr 1874 London 1c 179 married Nancy Isaacs. Is this correct?
    Phillip

  7. #47

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    Stuart
    For other researchers- Is this the marriage of Nancy Isaacs parents? Synagogue Scribes HSM 257 Rachel Abrahams March 30, 1837 to Zose Isaacs -Hebrew name Eleazer Zesman- father- Mr Hayim- Address Rosemary Lane.
    Phillip

  8. #48

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    Stuart
    Is this the Death Index Record for Benjamin Harris? Benjamin Harris March qtr 1871 age 68 Whitechapel 1c 315.

    I would treat with caution any of the dob years on the census because they are often inaccurate. Looking at the naming of Joel Harris ( the fishmonger/dealer) sons he names them after his wife's father Elezear aka Samuel aka Elias? and his own father Benjamin. His son Benjamin born circa 1877 which if based on Ashkenazi naming traditions after dead relatives ( can be very variable depending on the adherence to Jewish custom) suggests that Benjamin Harris snr was already dead. If you look on Free BMD Deaths under Benjamin Harris for the period 1871-1877 you will see the record of the above Benjamin death in 1871.
    This might explain why you can't find him in 1871 census.
    Phillip

  9. #49

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    Stuart
    Follow to #45 and for other researchers- Probate Joel Harris 5 Richmond Street Commercial Road Stepney Middx died 19 March 1925. Admin ( with will) to Lewis Harris fishmonger - Effects £620 11s 9d

    Death Index - Zuseman Isaacs age 87 Sept qtr 1896 Mile End 1c 308
    His Probate if same person- ELIAS ISAACS 17 Bloomsbury St Bedford Square Middx Gentleman died 13 Oct 1896 Probate to Samuel Isaacs and Michael Isaacs Fishmongers- Effects £1346 7s

    Phillip

  10. #50

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    Phillip,
    Re #46. I presume you are referring to the Gevertz Family Tree which essentially has correct information containing the Harris Family, starting with Abraham. The Joel you refer to is my relative and the grandson of Abraham from his son Benjamin second marriage. Joel was a Fishmonger at Billingsgate and in business in his own right. Born 1848-1925. While we're here thank you for #49 Probate info on Joel which I had oddly uncovered yesterday. The Zuseman mentioned by you in your next paragraph does not connect. Joel had a son referred to as either Samuel or Zussman or both and was born c 1877-c1930.
    Joel married Nancy Isaacs on 19 August 1874 at the Great Synagogue shows them living at 42 Middlesex St London. Father of Joel Benjamin Deceased and Nancy's father Zuse issacs. So Benjamin was deceased prior to Aug 1874 so maybe the reason he does not appear in the '71 Census.
    Here is some general data. Abraham Harris appears in '41 Census aged 65 born c 1776 in Foreign Parts livingin Goulston Street Whitechapel with an Anne and Styam or Hyam Harris (I have not established their relationship). Also in the same census shows Benjamin b c1806 Foreign parts is living in Ebenezer Square, The connection between Abraham and Benjamin is established in the '51 Census). in 1841 Benjamin is married to Hannah ( nee Samuel, married Great Synagogue 16/1/1833)and living in Ebenezer Square with their 4 children. Hanna died 12/06/1843. Benjamin marries again to Elinor Isaacs born c 1813. in 1845 and in the 51 Census shows Bejamin and Elinor living in Ebenezer Square with 4 children including the 3 year old Joel (presumably named after Elinor's Father Joel Isaacs of Yarmouth) of Benjamin and Elinor together with his Father Abraham.
    The '61 Census reveals the Barris family and their possible connection. I can find nothing at present in the 71 Census and although Benjamin could have been deceased by then I can't find Joel. He re-appears in 81 census in Richard Street married to Nancy together with 3 children. I very recently found the family in the '91. Searching under Joel Harris he initially appears in the preview together with wife Mary but the actual entry lists Nancy. The family also appears in the 1901 and 1911 Census still living at Richard Street.
    I would love to complete the missing gaps and have at least a fairly accurate of the family. I do have a lot of work to do but also would like to trace the Harris family back to Holland and before and also the Isaac Family of Yarmouth although I know you've posted some info on Joel/Issac/Jewell Isaacs I do need to follow that through too.
    All this has to go on the back burner for a couple of weeks and hope to pick it up in earnest when I'm back probably at the start of June.
    Thanks again Phillip for all your invaluable help.
    Stuart

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