Marriage look up request St Peters Liverpool

[almach]

1891, A Rachel Martin was living with John and the three children, I think it highly likelyshe was the children's mother. I'll post details in a moment.

[almach]

1891, 26, Smeaton St, Kirkdale, Liverpool. RG12; Piece: 2962; Folio: 4; Page: 2

John Hartgrove 65, widower, Sailmaker, Hull
John Hartgrove 18, Liverpool
Robert Hartgrove 11, Liverpool
Sarah Ann Hartgrove 15, Liverpool
Rachel Martin 50, Housekeeper, Ashley, Cambridgeshire.

And if Rachel Martin IS the children's mother there's possible births, unfortunately more than one for John, some of which have middle names - you can check the GRO index yourself -

Sarah Ann Martin, Jun qrt 1875, West Derby, 8b/246. Two possibles for Robert Martin Jun 1880, West Derby 8b/333. Dec 1880, West Derby 8b/587.

Of course I may be way off mark!

[almach]

I wonder if this is Elizabeth Ellen's marriage, do we know for certain her middle name was Ellen?

Anyway it's the nearest I can find.
Jun qrt 1901, Liverpool, 8b/239. Eileen Elizabeth Hartgrave to George Nevin.

1911 census 31, Smeaton St (same street as John was living in 1891)
George Nevin, 37, Billiard Marker
Eileen Nevin 39, married 10yrs, Had 3 live births, 2 children still living.
Charles Nevin, 5
Annie Nevin 7
All born L'pool. RG14; Piece: 22457

[almach]

Also possible Hannah lived with another man and she and Elizabeth are registered in his surname.

Should have said, registered in his surname in 1881 census.

[almach]

Hmm! maybe Rachel Martin isn't the children's mother as she's in Kirkdale on her own in 1881. 25, Medlock St.
RG11; Piece: 3681; Folio: 35; Page: 12

[almach]

Marriage Dec 1899, West Derby, 9b/809
Allan Mearns/Sarah Ann Hartgrave.

1901 census, 84, Smeaton St.
Allen Mearns 25, Dock Labourer, L'pool
Sarah Ann Mearns 25, L'pool
Allan Abraham Mearns 2 Months, L'pool
Rachel Martin 60, servant, nurse domestic, Cambridgeshire

[almach]

Is this just a coincidence? Or did John Henderson and John Hartgrave work together?

1901, Poulton cum Seacombe,
Emma Garner 57, L'pool
Mary Henderson 20, dau, L'pool
Robert Hartgrave 21, boarder, Miller's Labourer, L'pool
Michael Finigan 18
Robert Hughes 18

1891, Liverpool, RG12; Piece: 2916; Folio: 11; Page: 18
Jno Henderson 55, Sailmaker, Ellesmere, Cheshire
Emma Henderson 49, L'pool
Mary Henderson 10, L'pool

[gtcjackie]

The only GRO index reference is to Elizabeth as you have already found, I too can find no records of the births of John, Sarah or Robert. I suppose it is a possibility that the younger 3 did have a different mother and they were registered under her name but certainly when John married in 1898 and Sarah in 1899 they had their fathers name, so it is a puzzlement. Any idea how I should pursue this? I don't have Elizabeth's birth certificate, do you suggest I purchase it?

I hadn't seen the Henderson connection at all, interesting observation with the Sailmaking, I know Liverpool was a huge port/boat building city in those times but not sure how many sail makers there would be so it could be more than a coincidence.

Sarah was my great grandmother and I did notice Rachel Martin was a domestic/nurse on the first census my Grandfather was on when he was small so I just thought she was probably helping out as she obviously had when Sarah & her siblings were younger.

All your input is appreciated.

Jackie

[almach]

Jackie, I agree this is a big puzzle.

The main reasons I believe the children may not have been Hannah's, but were John's.

No death record found for Hannah - I assume she was known by another surname.

No births for the younger three children in surname Hartgrave or Hartgrove, Hardgrove etc.

If a woman gave birth to illegitimate children they were usually registered with her surname, however they were entitled to call themselves any surname they wished, and many illegitimate children did use their natural father's surname in particular when they lived with him.

[almach]

I don't have Elizabeth's birth certificate, do you suggest I purchase it?

The birth certificate may or may not be revealing, depends whether John is named as father. The reason I doubt he was her father is: John and Hannah married in 1861, but Elizabeth wasn't born until 1870, seems a long time after marriage to have a first child.