a tangle of De Montmorencys!

[ChattieKathy]

I am trying to dig my way though a tangle of De Montmorencys that seem to be all over Ireland. Some specifically in Dublin. They seem to all be connected in some way. Not being familiar with Irish research, I will ask some experts here.

I will start with Maria Louisa De Montmorency (Mariam Ludovicam DE MONTMORENCY) who was baptized 5 Mar 1832 at St. Michan (Roman Catholic) in Dublin. Her parents were Harvy Francisci DE MONTMORENCY and Mariae Richards SKELTON.

On 5 May 1853 Maria Louisa DE MONTMORENCY (of 4 Fitzwilliam Square) marries John Thomas KNOX (of 8 Pembroke St) in Dublin at the Parish of St. Peter, Church of Ireland. Her father is Harvey DE MONTMORENCY Esq. Witnesses are F.F. DE MONTMORENCY and H De MONTMORENCY. (no longer Catholic?)

There are a plethora of DE MONTMORENCYS with combinations of these first names along with others. I'm very interested though in a Harvey Francis DE MONTMORENCY whose will I've seen on the Calendar of Wills who died 25 Dec 1874 who was "Late of Fitz-william Square". However, it looks like this guy appears in "The Peerage" listings as married to someone else, and not listing a daughter named Maria Louisa. I have only seen the listing on the calendar, but I've read in different internet areas that he only had 2 children born in 1834 and 1835, one of which was a daughter by a different name. Unless I have the wrong guy on The Peerage...just noticed a date issue I missed earlier!


Could Maria Louisa have been illegitimate? Or was her parents relationship (assuming they were married) not considered legal because of Catholicism?

I do not have death info for Maria Louisa DE MONTMORENCY KNOX. I have not found her after the 1861 census when she, her husband and children were in London (Hackney). Her oldest son, Francis Frederick Harvey Knox was the only child (to my knowledge) that came to the US in 1889. I do have more info on the other children, if it will help! Some of their marriage records have witnesses that also link to other DE MONTMORENCYS.

Thanks for any skilled advice! I've exhausted my own resources!
(Chattie)Kathy

[Coromandel]

I do not have death info for Maria Louisa DE MONTMORENCY KNOX. I have not found her after the 1861 census when she, her husband and children were in London (Hackney). Her oldest son, Francis Frederick Harvey Knox was the only child (to my knowledge) that came to the US in 1889.

Hi Kathy

I'm not an expert on Irish records either. From what you say about the family in 1861 I assume this is them:

8 Chesterford Terrace, Hackney (RG 9/158, f.83, p.35)

John Knox, head, 36, Custom House Clerk, b. Ireland Dublin
Marie Knox, wife, 29, b. Ireland Dublin
Harvey Knox, son, 7, scholar, b. Middx London
Marie Knox, daur, 1, b. Middx Hackney
Margt. Carey, servant, 19, house servant, b. Ireland Wicklow

Presumably Harvey is the Harvey Francis Frederick Knox whose birth was registered in the second quarter of 1854, Westmister St Margaret district. Do you have his birth certificate to confirm that his mother's name was Montmorency?

I don't know whether any employment records survive for custom house clerks. If they do, they might tell you where John went next. When/where did the children get married?

My hopes were raised when I saw that the death of a 69 year old Maria Louisa Knox was registered in the Killala district in the third quarter of 1905, according to the Irish civil registration deaths index on Ancestry. Unfortunately it looks like she's a different person: the Irish 1901 census has an unmarried 64 year old Maria L. Knox with her brother John V. Knox in Castlereagh (Killala, Mayo).

[CanadianCousin]

I don't know whether any employment records survive for custom house clerks.

They do indeed, although since I live in Canada, I've never gotten to Kew to see them. Kathy might want to look at some of the posts on this forum.

Tim

[Coromandel]

I do not have death info for Maria Louisa DE MONTMORENCY KNOX.

Another possibility: the death of a 67 year old Marie Louise Knox was registered in the Dublin South district in the third quarter of 1899.

As you probably know already, Kathy, John Thomas Knox's daughter Marie married John Alexander Dockeray, physician and surgeon, at St Andoen's, Dublin, on 31 March 1881:

https://
churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/reels/d-116-3-3-026.pdf

The witnesses were Francis H.W. de Montmorency and Beatrice M.L. de Montmorency. Have you worked out who they are?

[Coromandel]

The witnesses were Francis H.W. de Montmorency and Beatrice M.L. de Montmorency.

Beatrice Marie Louise de Montmorency (dau. of Fred de Montmorency) married Moore Verner on 10 November 1904 at St Michael's church, Appleby, Westmoreland, according to FamilySearch. She is shown there as 36 years old, so born about 1868.

A Harvey F.W. de Montmorency (born about 1867 Ireland) is on the 1901 census in Appleby (again according to FamilySearch).

Perhaps he is Harvey Francis William de Montmorency, full age, bachelor, gentleman, of Leopold Mount, Chapeltown, Leeds, son of Frederick Harvey de Montmorency, gentleman, who married Mary Malcolmson on 19 June 1889 at Rutland Church in the parish of Urglin, County Carlow, by licence. Witnesses Samuel William Hac..ey or Huck..ey and Laura Malcolmson.

https://
churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/reels/c-612-3-1-026.pdf

[Coromandel]

The LDS 1881 census transcript has a 50 year old Frederick H. de Montmorency (born Ireland) at 75 Rugby Road, Milverton, Warwickshire, with wife Annie (53, born Frangton, Leics), daughters Hanera Florence (8) and Dora Ethel (4) both born in Ireland, and son Raymond Frederick (1) born Milverton, Warks, plus a servant (RG 11/3094, f.107, p.3). Is this the father of Beatrice and H.F.W. de Montmorency? (If so, where are they in 1881?)

FreeBMD has a marriage of a Fred 'Hare' De Montmorency in the Barrow district, Q3 1865 (volume 7a, page 233). Looking at a scan of the original page of the GRO index, I see that his middle name indeed begins 'Har' but then fades out: it could be Hare (as transcribed) but if you squint hard there's maybe a ghostly 'y' there so it could be Harvey. There's a matching entry for an Annie Branston Hackney. (Is there any connection with the Samuel William Hackney(?) who witnessed Harvey Francis William's marriage in 1889?)

[Coromandel]

I'm still chasing after Fred in case he connects with your mystery Maria . . .

FamilySearch's 'Ireland Births and Baptisms' has these children of Fred/Fredrick/Frederick H. de Montmorency & Annie:
- Harvey Francis William born 23 July 1866 Rathvilly, Carlow
- [son] born 5 Nov 1867 Rathvilly
- Mary Louise born 10 October 1868 Rathvilly (is this the person later known as Beatrice Mary Louise?)
- Ethel Kate born 4 September 1876 Ireland (would be about the right age to be the Dora Ethel in 1881)

and their Ireland civil registration index has these events registered in the Baltinglass district:
- Harvey F. Wm., birth registered 1866
- male (aged 0), death regiestered 1867
- Mary Louise, birth registered 1868
- Hannah F., birth registered 1873
- Annie Frederica, birth registered 1874
- Ethel Kate, birth registered 1876

1901 census index on FamilySearch shows some people called Demontmorency in Buxton, Derbyshire. I can't see full details, but Annie B. (52) is the head of the household. I think daughters Hannah F. (27), Fredericka A. (25) and Dorothy E.D. (23) are with her.

I wonder if her husband is the Harvey F.F. de Montmorency whose death was registered in the first quarter of 1882. The district is a bit unexpected (St Asaph) but the age is about right (51). There's a corresponding entry in the National Probate Calendar, for a Harvey Francis Fred de Montmorency. I can't see the full entry to see if it helps identify him. If it refers to probate (rather than administration) you can send off for a copy of the will.

[ChattieKathy]

Hi Kathy

I'm not an expert on Irish records either. From what you say about the family in 1861 I assume this is them:

8 Chesterford Terrace, Hackney (RG 9/158, f.83, p.35)

John Knox, head, 36, Custom House Clerk, b. Ireland Dublin
Marie Knox, wife, 29, b. Ireland Dublin
Harvey Knox, son, 7, scholar, b. Middx London
Marie Knox, daur, 1, b. Middx Hackney
Margt. Carey, servant, 19, house servant, b. Ireland Wicklow

Presumably Harvey is the Harvey Francis Frederick Knox whose birth was registered in the second quarter of 1854, Westmister St Margaret district. Do you have his birth certificate to confirm that his mother's name was Montmorency?

I don't know whether any employment records survive for custom house clerks. If they do, they might tell you where John went next. When/where did the children get married?

My hopes were raised when I saw that the death of a 69 year old Maria Louisa Knox was registered in the Killala district in the third quarter of 1905, according to the Irish civil registration deaths index on Ancestry. Unfortunately it looks like she's a different person: the Irish 1901 census has an unmarried 64 year old Maria L. Knox with her brother John V. Knox in Castlereagh (Killala, Mayo).

Yes..this is the right family. I have Harvey Knox's death certificate (died in Chicago, IL USA)...it lists his parents as John KNOX and "Maria Montmorency", and that he was born in Middlesex, England. This is confirmed by his great grandson who is still living. I did not yet order the birth record to confirm that this is the right family, but their journeys are consistent with family knowledge. All of his records here in the US refer to him as F.F. Harvey KNOX.

[ChattieKathy]

Coromandel,
Thanks so much for all of your work. I'm thinking that that the Fred you found above may be Maria Louisa's brother. I got an email response (from a descendent of the Beatrice above) to a query I placed on Ancestry that seems to link this line to an illegitimate son of a nobleman. I invited her to join this thread. I will update more as I learn more!

[Coromandel]

II wonder if her husband is the Harvey F.F. de Montmorency whose death was registered in the first quarter of 1882. The district is a bit unexpected (St Asaph) but the age is about right (51). There's a corresponding entry in the National Probate Calendar, for a Harvey Francis Fred de Montmorency. I can't see the full entry to see if it helps identify him.

Now that I'm back at the library I can see the National Probate Calendar entry:

'DE MONTMORENCY Harvey Francis Fred Esq.
Personal Estate in England £311 5s.

23 August [1882]. Probate of the Will of Harvey Francis Fred
De Montmorency late of Broughillstown in the County of
Carlow Esquire who died on or about 9 January 1882 at
8 John-street Ryhl in the County of Flint granted 5 April
1882 at Kilkenny to Annie Branston De Montmorency of
8 John-street Widow and Samuel William Hackney of Leopold
Mount Leeds in the County of York Esquire the Exectutors.'

From this it is clear that probate was granted in Ireland. The entry is listed in the (English & Welsh) National Probate Calendar because H.F.F. had some personal estate in England. What I'm not sure about is whether you can still get a copy of the will through the usual route for English wills.

I see Samuel William Hackney has popped up again . . . and he's listed as of Leopold Mount, Leeds, an address we've already encountered.